Most likely depends on the situation. All of them are highly skilled but specialise in certain areas, a duel scenario would suit certain ones more (Angron for example) but a huge 18 primarch free-for-all (technically 19) would probably benefit the likes of Alpharius/Omegon or Corax with their less orthodox tactics, or Sanguinius who would have the option of simply flying out of reach and waiting until the others are done before fighting the survivor 1 on 1. If you are talking simply physical strength didnt some of the lore say Vulkan was? Launching tanks with a hammer would probably take some beating, but there are people here with far more knowledge of the fluff than me so there may be more impressive feats than this I've not heard of
I want to say vulcan was almost as strong as the emperor, so strength wise vulcan. nextly when it comes to battle prowess with Stratagem and the likes Tie between Robute and Horus. Leman was good with a blade. but honestly they are all good in their fields respectivily.
In my opinion in terms of pure martial arts and close combat i think Angron, Sanguinius and Leman Russ take the cake. The others are good but still i think these three are absolute beasts (i'm not counting Horus after his fall to Chaos because that's a differente story).
It largely depends on what kind of duel or fight we are talking about because each and everyone has their specialities. For example Dorn and Perturabo were top siege experts, Corax and Alpharius were masters of stealth and quick pinpoint strikes, Angron, Russ and Sanguinius were close combat experts and so on...
In terms of physical strength Vulkan was the strongest, when it comes down to martial skill it's a tight race but Horus, Sanguinious, Leman Russ & Angron are generally considered the deadliest combatants. When it comes down to Strategy & tactics then Lion El'Jonson leads all comers with Horus & Gulliman close behind. One of the reasons Horus was chosen as warmaster is that while he wasn't the best at any one skill his combined skill set was the best. He was one of the top four warriors, ranked 2nd or third in strategy & was probably 2nd only to Sanguinious as a diplomat. In fact Horus skill set made him the perfect choice for warmaster before his flaws were taken into account but as an emperor, a figure head of government, Sanguinious would have been a far better option, something Horus himself recognized.
I'm a little late to the party, but didn't the other Primarch's literally call Angron "The Undefeated"? Wasn't that to suggest that they themselves considered him the best single combatant amongst them?
Also, I think Vulcan was supposed to actually be roughly as strong as the Emperor. When they first met there was a trial and it specifically says that many of the stages, that were feats of strength, had to be called off as ties because neither man could be seen to have an advantage.
There is room to consider Russ in the argument too, however. What with the fact that there is evidence that Russ and the Space Wolves may have been created with the express purpose of being able to deal with a legion that goes rogue. That would imply that Russ would have to be able to beat any other Primarch in a fight, and that his Astartes would have to be able to beat any other legion in a fight.
I would say that Russ is the most powerful primarch as it clearly states in one of the Horus heresy books although i cannot remember which one that he could beat Horus in a fight and of cause at the burning of prosperous he completely beat up Magnus the red. Angron is flawed severely by his rage as it completely clouds any judgement of his whereas Russ is 'angry' but still has a clear view of tactics that he can use whereas angron just charges head first
When it comes to pure physical strength Vulkan was the most powerful. When it comes to psychic power Magnus has it by a street. When it comes to personal combat it's between 4 (pre heresy) Horus, Angron, Sanguinius & Russ. When it comes down to battle strategy & tactics Lion el'Jonson is rated the best. When it comes down to sheer cunning Alpharius/Omegon takes the prize. When it comes to diplomacy Sanguinius is by far the best. When comes to organization Guilliman is easily number one. If you want the best all rounder thats where Horus stands alone He was 2nd to Sanguinius as a diplomat, 2nd to the Lion as a Strategist as well as being one of the top 4 fighters - it's the main reason Horus was chosen as Warmaster.
I had always assumed that guilliman was the best when it came to tactical command, I thought he had beat everyone in mock wargames until Corax beat him 3 times or something like that. When it comes to who would win in a fight I think Sanguinius would generally beat everyone except for Russ and possibly Angron but I still feel like he would beat him. Russ was just an all around warrior and the Angel vs the Wolf would be a battle of legendary scale.
well there is a lot of agreement on a lot of stuff, but i feel like people are leaving out the lion as one of the best fighters as well as the number one stratigist. he has beaten russ and Cruse. now a lot of people say lion beat russ do to the sucker punch but if you read Leaman Russ it become clear lion had a few times when he could have killed his brother (did not for clear reasons) and in Decent of Angles the final fight between lion and Cruse, lion fight him one v one in his prefered envorment and ends up breaking Cruse back. both of those primarks beat other primarks. main reason why lion was not chosen as warmaster was because he was a king in nature not a depomat and would have probobly caused infighting by expecting his brothers to do what they were told with no if ands or buts.
you wanna know why the Lion is not in there.. because malnourished curze beat him and guilliman in a 1v2 fight in unremembered Empire
the main reason why Lion was not chosen was because he was a loner with no friends, who always kept to himself and was simply not trusted..
Descent of Angels contains no mention of Night Haunter or Curze or Night Lord (at least not in my ebook or the audiobook version that I own) so i dare say you got your fluff mixed up a fair bit. The only Primarch with a broken back is Magnus and that is done by Russ...But hey, show me that I am wrong by quoting directly from the source material and give page numbers or chapter numbers.
Unfortunately I do not know the book and this is for some reason not on Kurze's page but on Sanguinius's instead under the header of the Imperium Secundus
"During an attack on the city of Alma Mons, the Lion finally corners the elusive Night Lords Primarch and the two come to blows. After a brutal confrontation, the Lion eventually emerges victorious, and questions his brother why he had turned away from the Emperor, in which Curze simply replied, 'why not?'. Curze went on to explain that there was a monster in his head that he could not stop. Though he finally had Curze at his mercy, the Lion couldn't bring himself to kill his brother, and instead pummeled him again. He then ripped off Curze's backpack from his battle-plate and then lifted him over his head, and then brutally brought him down across his knee, breaking Curze's spine and paralysing him. The Lion brought the grievously wounded Curze before Sanguinius and Guilliman to stand trial."
While its not specifically listed the pages its pulled from this wiki at least.
I've played and read about this game for over 10 years with a couple years break from time to time so im not the most knowledgable on this subject, but from what i've been reading, this is how it goes.Pre Heresy, Vulkan is the strongest of all primarchs, has a weapon that normal space marines can not lift, stands as tall as Horus in artificer armor when Horus has terminator armor. Sanguinius, Horus and a couple others that i can't remember are DEAD so i don't know why they are even in this debate, Angron, Montarion and any other primarch who turned to Chaos and didn't die has only gotten stronger now they are deamon princes, so unless Vulkan has been lifting weights for the last 1000 years i'd say when he comes back he may not be the strongest any more. In a primarch battle royal i'd still have to say Vulkan takes the cake, you can't kill the dude, he's like the black wolverine and regenerates constantly.
While not technically a primarch, valdor beats horus in a duel, thought that may be an interesting one to throw in the mix. This isn't really a question that can be answered, as depending on weapon, environment and situation can give them all a chance.
Technically Vulkan due to immortality. Other than that, probably Leman Russ or Angron. Weakest is clearly Papa Smurf, after Lorgar became superior to him. I agree that the Lion shouldnt be on here, sucker punching another Primarch whilst he's luaghing is a pretty crap feat, losing in a 2v1 against Curze doesnt help either
I don't think there was ever suppose to be a strongest the Emperor made the primarches with strengths and weaknesses the chasos gods broke that balance that is why each primarch has a counter among the 18 under their own power they would hold each in check kinda like Megaman bosses
Anyone note in wolfsbane that russ legit states that he thinks he could take all of the primarchs (though he notes some close battles I.e. Horus) except for Sanguinius and Kurze.
They are all unreliable narrators by nature, but russ notes that sanguinius combinations of fury and control is deadly. The mentions Kurze fighting like the insane...
At first this appears similar to Angron, but I think it's the difference between someone with a crazed bloodlust angron and someone who doesn't fear death Kurze and has absolute confidence he won't die... until the day he dreamed of.
Vulcan is definitely the strongest. But dueling would probably be down to Sanguinius, the lion or Kurze. One of the lions alternative names was The Duelist showing that he has to be very powerful in a duel but i would say that Sanguinius would win over all as in one of the books he kills two bloodthirsters with in ten seconds of each other showing incredible skill in close combat fighting.
If it's a duel between primarchs, then no nulls will be involved, so unless one of the primarchs was secretly a null, then Magnus wins with his sorcery.
Actually, thinking about it, nulls have a tendency to be hated by everyone around them, what if the lost primarchs were actually nulls with primarch levels of null, who were so powerful in their anti-psyker aura, that even the Emperor couldn't stand to be around them? Combine that with the antipathy that everyone with a soul feels towards nulls and multiply it to primarch levels and it would be no wonder that they were killed/banished so early after their initial recoveries by the Emperor and everyone was so willing to forget them, despite remembering Horus and the other 8 traitors. Surely the Emperor would not have made any Primarchs to be nulls, but he didn't make Sanguinius with wings either, crazy things happened during their warp rift abduction, who's to say that either or both of the 2nd and 11th Primarchs weren't demigod level nulls?
It does state in the fluff that Horus and Lorgar both believe Angron might be the only one able to beat Sanguinious in single combat, pre enhancement Horus of course. Horus also believed that Sanguinious was superior to him it seems, believing he should have been made warmaster instead but that might just indicate Horus feeling of admiration for his brother and not ability indicating. Russ was seemingly designed to be the executioner, but in Betrayer Angron claims to have beaten him one vs one, though Russ doesn't appear to have been trying as hard as he would in a fight to the death.
I'd have to say that unless you let Magnus use full powers on his brothers, the other choice has to be Sanguinious, outside chance of Angron or Russ. The Lion and Kurze seem to go pretty much bout for bout over the course of the series, they have many fights, and though the Lion breaks his back before the trial Kurze wanted to be caught and put on trial to split the empire up with his testimony so who knows if that's a good indicator. The Khan would be a dark horse for me because he only ever has fought Mortarion in canon that I know of and it was a draw, which I guess makes Mortarion a dark horse too.
If you want to look at it that way, sure, but I see Guiliman and his sons as the closest things to a baseline primarch and Astartes respectively. Other chapters surpass them in some areas, but the Ultramarines surpass some peers in other areas.
Therefore I have trouble seeing him and his Astartes as being the best at anything, but they're not the worst at anything either.
It's pretty much been cemented in lore that Guilliman is one of, if not the weakest of the Primarchs. Just because he was the first to resurface in current lore, doesn't mean that he's the strongest....
The weakest Primarchs are the lost/missing Primarchs because: 1) they aren't present in the current 40K lore, 2) they weren't standing and fighting along the Emperor, and 3) there isn't info on them. Howeve rthey could also be the strongest because there isn't information on them, which would give them an advantage for the fact that these unknown Primarchs wpuld have unknown skills, talents, and strengths that the rest of the universe wouldn't know about.
Well I would say Roboute Gulliman is the strongest. Horus, Konrad Kurze, Sanguinous (?), Ferrus Manus and Vulkan are dead. Mortarion, Angron, Fulgrim, Magnus the Red, Lorgar, Perturabo are now Daemon Princes for the Chaos Powers. Jaghatai (?) Khan, Leman Russ, Rogal Dorn, Lion El'Johnson MIA. Corvus Corax mutated into something galavanting throughout the Eye of Terror. Alpharius/ Omegon might be a Daemon-Prince, I dont know. By the process of elimination, with the Primarch of the Ultramarines having been resurrected from stasis would make him the strongest. I am a little behind on my readings though, but he didnt "disappear", succumb to Chaos or the conspiracies of weak-willed, power hungry Legionaries bent on usurping the Natural Process of the Imperium of Man. Nor did he think he could face Horus alone on the Vengeful Spirit alone with his "Pa".
There are many forms of "strength" and Gulliman has strength of Intelligence and Wisdom, look at the Empire he built and maintained prior to the Shadow Crusade and afterwards; "The 500 Worlds". His people are pretty resilient. With the help of a Stasis Field Generator, the Strength of his Constitution staved off the wound given unto him by Konrad Kurze I do believe. He was able to combat the poison long enough for a miracle to take place in order for him to be brought back into the game just in time to thwart Abaddon the Despoiler. For a Primarch to build an Empire of 500 worlds requires the "strength" of Character and Charisma to inspire and motivate billions of people across light years. Physically speaking, he may not be on par with Angron the Violently Steroidic or perhaps Rogal Dorn; the Immovable Object and Irrestible Force, but he is far more than capable of handling a significant emotional event given his martial prowess bolstering his physical strength.
The final strength he has is the "strength" of longevity for he has returned at the dawn of the 41st Milennia. To my knowledge, no other "pure Primarch" has yet to return from their Sabbaticals. At least now Bjorn the Fell-Handed has someone to talk to about the "Old Days" over a Beer and a quart for Pennzoil 10W/ 40 Dreadnought Oil...........Forward into Oblivion ad thank you for your time.
Guilliman has to be the strongest ecause he's so far the only Primarch still uncorrupted and living in the current warharmmer timeline. Plus being the strongesrt does have to one's physical strength but can be army one feilds/ can muster, mental, spiritial, the loyality/love of one's people for them, and/or etc.
Dorn because he'll make a special re-entery in to the 40K universe and will contine the fight for the Imperium along side his current resurrected brother Primarch Roboute Gulliman and with his Astarte sons.
Here's how I'd resolve it. Imagine each Primarch fights all other Primarchs one on one. Who racks up the most wins?
No rebirth for Vulcan
Only 1 Alpha Legion Primarch
Chaos Primarchs are pre ascension
All use their standard melee weapons
I am torn inbetween Fulgrim and Horus post-heresy, although I don't know if Horus can be counted as a primarch post-heresy.
Horus beat up both Sanguinus and the Emperor, but then again that was only after he was "blessed' by the chaos gods. He was also made warmaster by the emperor, maybe showing that the emperor belives horus to be the strongest(overall, not just in combat/others), and the emperor can't be wrong right? *cough cough*
Fulgrim killed more primarchs than any other traitor, and led his entire chapter into heresy, contributing alot to the black crusades and/or Horus Heresy.
As for vulcan being the strongest primarch, Physically maybe but mentally, psykicly and in terms of charisma he is wayyyyy behind all the others in my eyes.
Both post-heresy Fulgrim and Horus Lupercal have to be discounted. Fulgrim ascended to Daemon Prince status in Angel Exterminatus and Horus became possessed on Davin IV. Both have shed their Primarchdom a long time ago. Fulgrim was possesed by a "Keeper of Secrets" when he decapitated Ferrus Manus on Isstvan V. Fulgrim's conscoiusness was imprisoned within the painting in La Fenice aboard the Pride of the Emperor while the Greater Daemon of Slaanesh galavanted throughout the universe sowing discord in Fulgrim's mortal shell. It was the Daemon, not Fulgrim that brought the Emperor's Children into the fold of Chaos.
If anything, Fulgrim is one of the weakest, having his and legion's vanity and arrogance used against them by Slaanesh. Well, the entirety of the Legion save Saul Tarvitz and a few others.
The moment the Luna Wolves handed over the wounded Warmaster to the priestess and the doors closed behind him when he went into the temple, it was over. The Luna Wolves whom were Terran born should have known better since it was the Emperor who eradicated all religions on earth as part of his doctrine of unifing Earth before heading out to reconquer the galaxy.
So it wasn't all over when Horus was stabbed by the Anatheme? Cause if i had to pinpoint a single moment in which he tipped the balance in Chaos favour it was then. The temple of the serpent lodge was the second step already.
He really should have listened to his Mournival and stayed back instead of rushing into the abyss.
In fact during his failure against Temba, Horus confesses to himself that it was a mistake to do so. Still he continued nonetheless.
Looking back on it now i would say it was probably the biggest mistake in his entire career.
After the wounding through the Anatheme, his only alternativ to chaos, was to die instead.
Not much of a choice right? Especially for an ambitious heart.
if the legion had had brains, they could have prevented it.
"my my, our primarch is wounded, we cannot do anyhting because we do not understand his inner workings."
what are we gonna do?
attempt our best and watcxh him die?
maybe, just maybe we could , you know, apply simple logic.
we got stasis (as in freeze him in time so his condition does not get worse)
we can go and ask his creator aka emps, who is not only the biggest scientific mind we know, but also has godlike powers as psyker...
maybe we should actually leave that to the person most suited for the job?
naaah, religion and wonders dudes, that's where it is at, the preacher told everybody, right
I would say that Magnus would technically the strongest which he entered the Immaterium and was able to snap entire realities in half and even challange demons who can destroy universew with simple thoughts, albiet in the immaterium iirc.
Just adding some thoughts a few months after the debate:
Primarily it depends on the kind of strength you're speking about, so let's detail the ones mainly characterizing the Primarchs.
Lion was beaten a first time by Curze at the beginning of Thraman Crusade, and won twice against the Night Haunter after this; when he faced Russ, they fought during a day and a night before Russ began laughing. And then came the sucker punch, after the fight. So I consider Lion as slightly superior to Curze and equal to Russ in a classic duel situation, which is pretty high amongst the Primarchs. But Russ is the executioner, and then the best in a fight to death, so for me the best swordsman of them all (before the daemon ascending of the traitor Primarchs), maybe excluding Sanguinius, even more under the Red Thirst. Even Angron is a little bit inferior to the Wolf King, as his "berserk mode" makes him strategically unconscious, while Russ remains aware even in anger. Fulgrim could also be very highly ranked, having decapitated one of his brothers in 1v1 and mortally wounded another one.
Physically speaking, Vulkan is by far the best, with probably Morty behind him, and I'm not even taking account of his immortality.
Psychically, Magnus dominates all others (even his fellow daemonic brothers gifted with brand new powers). They aren't even at his ankle's height. So without nulls around he would be able to beat any other Primarch, including Russ and Sanguinius (remember the Sister of Silence's detachment on Prospero). He's also one of the smartest (perhaps one of the greatest geniuses would be more appropriate, when seeing their global intelligence level), which is a strenght of its own.
About the tactical aspect, Guilliman is the best at meticulously planning a war, with given resources and conditions, but Lion is better at adapting his plans to any situation. Speaking of Guilliman, he's martially not the best (nearly killed by Fulgrim) and the only things making him alive are the courage of his Legion, of Cadia's survivors, and his stasis field (if you're mortally wounded but alive, you'll still be alive after 10 millenaries in stasis, whatever your constitution is). And a few Eldars serving their own interests. And Cypher, also (I stop here). Alpharius/Omegon, Corax and Curze also excel in their own domains, and Jaghatai Khan is brilliant but most often underestimated (underrated guy, even by his brothers, which, being intentionnal, shows even more his talent).
Finally Horus is the most well-balanced of them, except his planet-sized (or should I say system-sized?) ego, a big weakness exploited on Davin. He's also the second best politician after Sanguinius, who's then superior to him in any point (except at fighting when Horus was empowered by the 4 Chaos Gods, but it's cheating at this level).
So among our beloved sociopathic, all flavours of weird and Warp-tainted demigods, I would say Sanguinius is the "strongest", tying up with Magnus (but slightly, very slightly, superior). Then come Horus (before Davin), Lion, Vulkan and Leman Russ (in undetermined order), in my opinion.