I was just wondering if using the Narhecium could be used as a weapon? I personaly could see all kinds of weapon uses and even had a long discussion about this with my group.. As nothing could be found we left it be :(
you can break bones with a simple club, hammer or use a kitchen knife to slit somebody's throat, medical instruments are used to cut bones, administer drugs and what not.. so basiccally: everything can be used as a weapon if you know how.
the nartheticum (if e talk about the arm device) is able to cut power- and terminator armour and reveal the tissue underneath, it is able to extract tissue and inject things into the bloodstream of the "victim"
it is quite easy to kill a person with normal meds: example: overdose of insulin, high doses of blood pressure meds (increasing or decreasing, works in both ways)
the simplest way would probably be just to inject the bloodstream with air, enough of that is lethal.
the only question would be wether the nartheticum would be able to withstand the stress on itself if it is used on a moving target. aka: side stability of the cutting elements/drills and what not.
Badassmcawsome wrote: Well its got a drill/cutting device on it and if you shove that into someones face its unlikely theyll survive
people survived with half their head blown away
the problem is wether or not the nartheticum is sturdy enough to be wielded as an offensive weapon because the patients normally don't move and don't resist treatment as much as a fighting opponent would
you also need to consider the modus operandi. does the nartheticum part that is made to cut through armor do that quickly or does it take some time.
if it is a drill and you apply force to the sides, you can cancel outt he effects of the drill, if it is a chainsaw type, smae principle works, you can actually stop the rotating chain that way
Actually, brother, they sometimes do if they're desperate enough. As Neithan's ben saying, the narthecium has both a small chainblade & a diamond-tipped drill. & it does say in some of the black library books that they do use it to gut an opponent if things go badly enough. In Nocturne, there was a crippled Salamander's apothecary who'd got attacked by a mandrake. He didn't have his pistol with him, so he resorted to slicing at it with the saw & drill, & using a couple of other spray & chemicals in it to both freeze it (& so prevent it from going into its shadow form) & blind it I think, because some of them were like acid.
Sorcerer Du'un wrote: Unfortunately Astartes do not think like that... An Loyalist Apothecary would not use a Narthecium in combat but a traitor would take pleasure in bereaking those rules...
where in the codex astartes does it state that there are such rules?
every apothecary is a full battle brother, and just to quote the codex on that
"He will bring his foe to battle in a manner and time of his choosing, never himself caught unready or ill-prepared for the task at hand. In defence he shall be stalwart as the mountain, a bulwark stood firm against the enemies of Man. In attack he shall strike with the wrath of the Immortal Emperor, felling the foe without mercy, remorse or fear.""
I never said that the apothecary would not have access to better choices, the problem is the following:
normally apothecary = chainsword+ bolt pistol.. let him run out of ammo and energy or let him loose those, what does he have but the tools of his trade to defend himself and as such he would only use a tool of the imperium against an enemy of the imperium.
nobody shouted out in protest when they modified land crawlers into siegfrieds.
to corrupt it, you would need a chaotic influence, which is not there. or you would have f.e. a problem with apothecaries researching weapons of mass destruction for exterminatus.
I tihnk it is more a quesation of possibility and circumstance
what is more corrupting, an apothecary with a non sanitized tool (afaik drill and saw of the nartheticum are always exposed and thus can get corrupted by blood, chemical or biological weapons, or even hostile atmospheres) or a dead apothecary are bad?
have you ever pressed a drill through metal? once you have no resistance, you will move forward, getting into the flesh especially if you cannot make sure how thick the armour youR'e going to cut, is (damage, individualisation, different marks, maybe repaired with other material on the battlefield and so on)
The drill is for Terminator Armor. Beneath the Terminator Armor is normal Power Armor, and when the drill goes that deep they switch to the saw.
An Apothecary is a Space Marine. I have indeed pushed a drill through metal, and to avoid it going straight through you need to keep a constant light pressure on it. It is hard to do it but it is far from impossible.
As a Space Marine, the Apothecary has much faster reaction time and his reflexes are great, meaning such setbacks that we suffer will not affect them much.
problem 2: terminator armour does not have power armour underneath it but it is merely a bulkier more heavily armored variant, it is not an exosuit like a nemesis dreadknight. (sidenote, i hope you have worked with a chainsaw, too, know that it will tear into the flesh
Chainswords/saws are lethal... more so in 40k but it still takes them what, a few seconds to rip through Ceramite? But then again Space Maries will be trained to focus on the weak points of power armour... Otherwise the chainsword would be a horrible disadvantage when facing enemy Astartes...
And on a different note, the chainsaw/drill would be used as a weapon, but i'm talking about its primary functions/devices, such as the presicion laser/Geneseed removing device, using these would corrupt it beyonds its sacred purpose, thus resulting in a tech heresy...
Then, Neithan, if I may ask you: If they are not used for what they are stated for being used for several times in books that are considered canon, what are they used for?
And how do you remove Space Marine armor on the field quickly? A power weapon would have to be too big to have a generator to provide it with the disruption field, and it takes a lot more time to disengage the seals of Power Armor from the outside than to saw through it.
I am not stating that it should not be used in that way, however I am saying that the use of a chainsaw on a tight figgtin armor can be problematic, aka you might run the chainblade into flesh while treating your patient
you have the blade and drill and as i stated earlier: the ultimate purpose of those devices is to bring substances into a nother body, may they be poison or, as I also stated in post one, a lethal injection of air, or medication (which in overdose or giving wrong medicine to a patient, can also kill) example: overdose of insulin to any human, injection of nicotine or blood pressure sinking chemicals to a person with low blood pressure and so on and so forth
ultimately, you would not have heresy because you still use the devices in accordance with what they have been built for, you inject a person with a substance
If the Astartes gets hit by bolters, they will not be fighting again until they have some new bionics.
And if an Astartes is downed in battle to such an extent that they cannot fight, they are taken out of the fight to the nearest Techmarine to prevent the armors Machine Spirit from getting upset and malfunctioning.
it is a battlefield, ther is more than 1 bolt round, or should I have said: splinter rifle or thatr main weqapon from the eldar, which is just a small disc, apothecaries tend to wounded battle bros, on the field, otherwise they would not be there, but you would just have 1 collector/ssquad for the progenoid glands
Apothecaries tend to wounds that can be tended too, but ruining their battle brothers power armor in the heat of battle is not prudent. If they are wounded so much that you have to remove their armor, they would not be on the battlefield. This goes for all kinds of field-medicin, which is the difference between a field-surgeon and a medic.
problem: if you have to treat osmebody on the battlefield, you do it, especially when that is a huge investment as far as training and so on go, not to mention the years and years of experience of the average battle brother and their rather low number to begin with.
you might not always have situations with med evac and what not, they will be treated.
I agree with Legionaire.If an Astartes is too injured to fight, or needs his armour removed chances are he is dying or dead... But remember battle injuries do not slow a Space Marine... One can lose a limb or two and still attempt to fight on. Such is their duty, their sacrifice, theor purpose...
Legionaire22 wrote: Apothecaries tend to wounds that can be tended too, but ruining their battle brothers power armor in the heat of battle is not prudent. If they are wounded so much that you have to remove their armor, they would not be on the battlefield. This goes for all kinds of field-medicin, which is the difference between a field-surgeon and a medic.
Its not mentioned much these days, but the astartes carry repair kits for minor damages (space wolves novel #1) additionnaly, when some one is on the edge of operational incapability, or the possibility of restoring some one to operations, you do it. Apoths carry some stuff that can turn a mildly non full operational Marine Back to operational.... And for removing a Space Marine From the battle field due to a portion of their armor being removed is different from a Human with out PPE, The Astartes in question is pushed by psycho conditioning beyond our understanding... lossing a limb to them, while it sucks, is not the end of their combat operations (Garro when he looses a leg, Vispus Nero hacked off his own damn hand in the first HH book) Astartes can go beyond things that would kill a mortal man a few times over, take a normal Human's hand off, he is going to need med evac at the risk of his life... Nero was like..... "the hand was slowing me down" (in translation to modern words... I aint got time to bleed)
in regards to the holy purpose of the tools, it's also the holy purpose of astartes to kill enemies of humankind and if an apothecary (apothecaries are marines first and medics second, like techmarines are marines first and techs second) has no weapons immediately to hand i doubt they'd hesitate for even a second before using the drill/saw of his gauntlet.
in regards to the use of these as weapons: i always thought the drill was specifically for the extraction of the progenoids - the drill cutting through the armour to provide access. and while i believe the drill would be relatively slow in cutting through power or terminator armour, and any lateral tension reduces it's ability, it would still be a lethal weapon against anything from bare flesh up to flak armour. the saw i'm of the opinion is for extreme injuries - a marine takes a wound in the lower leg/arm that requires amputation, the saw is then used for that as well as removing any armour in the way so the wound can be cauterised.
as for the needles and such, while they could theoretically be used effectively as weapons i doubt astartes, loyal astartes at least, would use them as such. they would probably be quicker and more effective just using their bare hands.
About the drill suddenly braking free and fucking shit up: its conical. Ergo it wont brake loose after the tip is through ceramite and whatnot like a cylindrical drill would. A conical drill would only widen the hole as it goes deeper.
About astartes being too douchey to use a nartecium in combat... Naah. Maybe sanguinius special emo-snowflakes with their sanguinary priests but no selfrespecting chapter would arm their battlebrothers for battle and then tell them not to do battle with what they have been armed with.
About the narthecium being too flimsy... Well its an admech bayonet breacher mounted next to a chain knife or a bulkhead cutter... All intended for use on nonsquishy, very angry targets.
In the board game you can, as I recall It worked like a shitty chain sword when rolling your dice cause it had to be rolled separately from chain swords, and combat knives. If it's listed in the codex as a weapon it is one.