Every race/army has it's advantages and disadvantages, for example Astartes are on average the most powerful and skilled warriors in the Galaxy but their smaller numbers prevent them from destroying everything else...
in terms of numbers, except for orks, no-one comes close to tyranids, and their bio-technology is just as advanced (but in a completley different direction) and as non-understood as necron tech, but as the vast bulk of that race is still asleep then i think this removes them from being the mightiest faction. .....at least for now, but their time will come....soon.
i think orks are probably the mightiest: their numbers are greater than everyone's, bar tyranids, they have weaponry capable of destruction that, while being extremley crude, is on a par with the imperium's, and their entire race is their military.
the one and only conditional clause, however, is that their race is based on might, and they can't stop 'demonstrating' their might amongst themselves long enough to join together to prove their might against the whole galaxy.
i truly believe that if (and that's gigantically massive IF) the orks were to unite under one leader, and ghazkhull may yet be our boy, as a single cohesive military force then no-one native to this galaxy could hope to oppose them, and even the tyranids would struggle to do to them what they've done to everyone else.
Yes, but that will never happen since it is totally against the nature of orks to be kept in line and to respect each other in the way which is nessecary for them to work together. For orks the only reason to follow someone is if they are bigger and tougher than you and even then they don't like it.
As for the nids, they are the most powerful faction and could yet defeat the necrons if by some freakishly bad occurence they mange to figure out how to actually kill necrons for good. But they could also win if they could move fast enough, all the necrons need is time and then nothing will be able to stop them. But time is a luxury very few can afford.
Call me a cockeyed optimist but my money is still on Humanity to win - if not necessarily the Imperium. We have survived everything the Galaxy can throw at us for some forty thousand years now - including each other. We can make it through Tyranids and Necrons too.
Like Kadjah said, Humanity will still be a tough nut to crack- even for the likes of the Necrons and the Tyranids. If Humanity in 40k has one strength, it's sheer pig-headed determination to survive.
Edit: Also, its admittedly off topic a bit, it just occurred to me while reading everyone's posts... Why do we refer to The Tyranids as 'they' and 'them' when technically isn't it just 'it?' The Hive Mind is just one sentient consciousness.
All the factions are pretty much tied, for every boon they have they usually have a debilitating chutch.
Imperium, largest empire, with the largest armies, could easily crush any foe but is too supremely ineffiecent to get much of anything done. By the time they finally react to something the damage is already done.
Chaos can never truly be beaten but it fights itself as much as the enemy.
Eldar, powerful but few and scattered. Only reason they havent been wiped out yet is because they're home worlds are on the move and are thus hard to attack directly.
Necrons, extremly powerful, but suffer from any number of problems, such as they're programing failing. to them all potenially suffering a virus that turns them into crazed flesh eating monsters.
Tau, unmatached at ranged, but their morale is shattered when an etheral dies.
Everything is going to be eaten by the Nids anyway. I guess orks could survive with their spores and stuff, and chaos as well since they have their cozy little dimension. I'd like to think that Tau will take Humanity's place eventually and the Imperium become a bunch of survivors like the current Eldar. But that's just because I love Tau :P
Sorry bub, if what I see so far is true, its only going to be the Atun dynasty and the Ogdobekh dynsaty stareing each other down in the end unless some of the Old Ones show up. Much as i'd love the Tau to "save" empy's kids, I can't see it happening at this point.
I'm going to agree with a couple people here that have pointed out that the Imperium of Man is currently the dominant force in the galaxy. SpartanD14 is correct in saying that the Imperium is slow to react to threats (Hive Fleets have gone unchecked far too long), but the danger of an enemy force knocking on Terra's door and actually overthrowing the empire is (relatively) low.
However, there is a tremendous elephant in the room as far as speculation on the future of humanity is concerned: the Golden Throne is failing! Keeping the death of the Emperor secret will be impossible, as the entire Imperium will immediately notice the absence of the Astronomicon. Chaos, my friends, will thrive.
The Eldar and Orks are not going to be in a position to fill the resulting power vacuum anytime soon. Nobody quite understands how to handle the Necrons, but they are not massive enough to become top dog either. The Tau need to unite what's left of humanity after the Emperor's death if we're to have any chance of halting Chaos's progress as they come pouring out of the Eye of Terror in the absence of order and force coherence.
With all that said, let's get real. The Tyrannids are going to eat everything unless they're somehow destroyed at the source.
At the moment, it's sort of like all of the factions are too powerful to be destroyed, but to weak or disorganised to destroy anyone else, as everyone except perhaps the tyranids and tau are too busy fighting each other.
Personally I feel the Necrons are the most powerful of all the factions. Everytime the Necrons rear their cold, green, metallic heads, the body count usually skyrockets and the tough guys start running for the nearest warp capable starship.
Most of the victories over the Necrons have only been won because the necrons were still mostly in stasis, and because the local Necron Lord was blown to bits in most instances. In a stand-up fight the necrons would overwhelm everything, their tech, ruthlessness, and capacity for war far outstrips every other faction they have encountered.
While I can't vouch for the tabletop game as my experience is limited to the books, and the RTS game (though I discount the RTS game), if memory serves the Necrons are even capable of repurposing the dead of their victims. I BELIEVE Necron Pariahs are created from the remains of Blanks, people with a null signature in the warp and an immunity to psychic powers/attacks, (See Jurgen :D)
Granted, yes, Orcs have the numbers to wash over the galaxy in a tide of green skin, ill tempers and horrible table manners, Chaos has the pure vindictiveness to wipe the galaxy of everything, the Imperium has the military might to fight them to a stand-still, and the Tyranids have the whole endless hunger thing going for them, but so far only the Space Marines have stood a chance against small Necron incursions, and even then they only barely managed to win. So, at least in my mind, the Necrons win.
Only thing I can say (in my personel opinion) in the end is the fact that the Crons have the full capability to destroy Chaos completely. At best, Chaos can weaken them through Gurrilla tactics and pre-awakening strikes, but the crons' Cadian pylons and the monolith's anti-psi shroud they emit when there are four of them together tells me that all is lost to the living. The daemons will destroy man, post-necrontyr will destroy Chaos' corporeal existance, and post-necrontyr will destroy post-necrontyr as the flayers begin to flay each other for their worn skins and the destroyers have their fill of the last gasping breaths of the stonewalled Hive-Mind's manifestations and the few Ork hold-outs remaining. In the future of the future, there is only silence. . . .
On the bright-side of it all, at least the Milky Way will get to start completely fresh from scratch. . . aside from Mephet'ran sparking everything over again from scratch and using some species just arising from another puddle of primordial slime as Necron replacements anyway and creating another dark future within the 52nd millennium devoid of any races known to us in this era.
i think the Tau would have a good shot a complete galatic dominance, it is said that in 6000 years they went from primitive race just learning to make fire to a space farring race on par with the other space races of the galaxy.In another 6000 years they could have technology that far surpasses all the other races, maybe even on the level of the old ones. On top of that they are known for accepting other races to join them, some humans have already been known to join them. if they defeat the imperium, they can have the survivors join them greatly increasing their size. i could also see the elder possibly joining them. With them all in one army they could destroy most of the other races (Tyranids and Necrons would put up a tough fight).
Thats why i think Tau could win overall, their rapid growth in Technology and their willingness to allow others to join them
The three most powerful factions are the c'tan, old ones and tyranids. The c'tan are mostly split up and enslaved by the necrons, the old ones have been gone for tens of millions of years, and the tyranids have just arrived from outside the galaxy (giving them the auspicious achievement of being one of the few races from outside the milk way).
At the moment there's no question that the tyranids are by far the most powerful. Should the c'tan awaken or the void dragon be released, they will rival the tyranids, and should the old ones return they will be the strongest.
The imperium or orks are extremely weak in comparrison...
Humans are our main character, and they're also the good guys!!Without imperium there's sgall be no warhammer 40k as without empire there is no warhammer fantasy...so, int the end they will find a way to win and annihilate their major problems after all, like tyranids, necrons and so on....though they will have immense casualties cause if the imperium wins without having half of itself teared apart it's not enough fun.
The Tyranids are defenantly a massive threat, many theories suggest that the Tyranids have barely even brought in 2% of their entire universal number. The Tyranids could have been a "galactic delete button" invented by the Old Ones before their disappearance since the Tyranids were supposed to target Necron tomb- worlds, and the Astronomicon is the one of the only things drawing the Tyranids away from their main objective.
There are multiple ways these Tyranids can be defeated, first for all that remains of the Necrons and C'tan to awaken. Second for the Imperium, the Tau Empire, And the Eldar to form a galactic alliance (which could be unlikely), and third, for the entire human race to turn over to Chaos and feed the Chaos gods and the Immaterium to be powerful enough to rival the Tyranids. The later might result in the decay and destruction of the human race in the great game. However the Tyranids remaining alive or all Necrons awakening would also end humanity. ;)
Basically the Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos are the strongest as of now, however the ancient Imperium of Man was also very strong under the Emperor. If the Horus Heresy had not happened, all alien races would be exterminated and the entire galaxy would be turned over to the Imperial Truth, the Chaos gods would be too weak to even create daemons. Eventually the Imperium would have expanded to other galaxies.
Imagine the necrons vs humanity under the Emperor! Now that would be a blood bath. Unless of course the Emperor just blew them to pieces before they could wake up properly. But if it happened in the Hourus Heresy...
1) Necron. When they wake up, there will be a recckoning.
2) Tyranids. Numbers overwhelming, when they all come...
3) Imperium. Still a veritable force throughout teh galaxy.
4) Chaos. Still very powerful, but I dont think it can compare to tyranids and necrons.
5) Orks. Too disorganized to do much, and their soldiers arent too great as compared to, say, space marines. Or Tau. Or necrons. or really anything, actually. But their sheer number advantage is too much to rate them any lower.
6) Tau. Not too impressed by them, to be honest. people all say they have lots of technology and stuff, but they dont even have FTL travel. Not to mention, they are way too young to be judged... Just give them a millenium or two and they will start fracturing. Hell, they already did; jsut look at the farsight enclaves.
7) Eldar. Too weak now to be much of a force
8) Dark Eldar. However, they do have one advantage; I wager they can outlast almost any other race other than chaos. If all other races fall, I bet dark eldar will be the last to fall since it would be so bloody hard to track them down.
9) Exodite. While I love exodites to death, they really are just not powerful enough to do anything.
i think i agree with most of that list, my only difference would be that i'd swap necrons and tyranids.
and while ork soldiers don't really compare to the soldiers of any of the other races' soldiers, that's only because orks have so very few, if any, soldiers - orks are just regular civilians in their society, but due to the biological make-up of their race their civilians are more than capable of testing the soldiers of every race, and no race has civilians that are a match for ork civilians :P
I really 'wanted' to put orks higher, but I simply couldnt buy that they were more powerful than chaos or the imperium.
Anyways, I personally think necrons are stronger than the tyranids, but I think its such a small difference in power that really it could be either. I could buy that tyranids are more powerful/just as powerful, but in the meantime I think that the necrons are still stronger; if only just by a sliver.
if orks had an imperium-esque military heirarchy then i'd put them in the top 2 (at the very least 2nd but possibly 1st), but since they lack such cohesion amongst themselves then they wouldn't be more than a galactic nuisance if it wasn't for their numbers which makes them a viable threat to everyone. i like orks a lot but i think 5th is where they should be.
the necrons have the most advanced technology in the galaxy, by a long way, but while they have numbers most of them are still 'asleep' awaiting their awakening protocols (and many of them will never awaken due to the degredation/malfunctions many tomb-worlds have suffered). plus they have wars amongst themselves so they aren't totally united.
tyranids on the other hand have uncountable numbers already but the vast bulk of them are still in their inter-galactic hibernation which are in the process of 'waking', which will make their uncountable numbers even more uncountable :P . as for their technology, while it's biological in nature, i consider it just as advanced (but in a completely different manner) as necron tech because it's a technology that no-one understands how it works and so can't retro-engineer it (just like necron tech). plus no race is as united as the tyranids under the hive-mind.
if the necrons were fully awake, and united, then i don't know who would be more powerful a faction (i would probably say they would share 1st place), but i think necrons would be the best suited to effectively combat tyranids due to their technology and because necrons have no psychic-ness for the suffocating 'shadow in the warp' to have an effect on.
The frustrating thing is that this is all speculation; we will never actually know what happens, because GW wouldn't dare to go into the 42nd millennium, unless they actually wanted to end everything. Personally whilst I am confident the Imperium cannot survive, humanity will. They will probably end up a back water species with an empire smaller than the Tau, but I reckon they will eventually just repeat the process by remaking the chaos gods and building another massive empire, which will collapse, and then over and over again. Tyranids will probably get owned by necrons if they get their act together, and as those giant bugs eat their way through everything, the other races will start trying to blast them apart.
But I'm forgetting myself, this is not an End Times thread, it is a discussion on which faction is strongest. And in my typical loyal fashion I say: "Go Necrons!"
Well about Tyranid tech, I agree its just as advanced, but its not as good at weapon systems and armor and stuff, because after all their tech is basically based off of swarm tactics (You know, considering how they are able to produce soldiers basically on the spot to attack.)
I think that it would play out like this for necrons vs. Tyranids; the tyranids would have the advantage at first, but the necrons would unite out of desparation and beat back the tyranids and eventually win once enough of them woke up.'
About humans... I dont think they would ever build up a large empire. It seems to me that they would become more like the eldar, but even weaker because they dont have the tech the eldar do. So they would sorta become another fallen race, on the run from its foes. But I figure that they and the eldar would likely ally out of desparation under those circumstances. And yes this might jsut be cause I really like the eldar and like to think of them saving humans even though tahts uncharacteristic of them, but in all actuality I think that if the imperium fell that could easily happen, with them joining arms just for the purposes of survival.
Yes, if the humans dropped all of their religious rubbish, they'd be able to unite more effectively, and they'd probably see reason and be able to defeat the Tyranids for now at least, and beat back chaos to their limits. But the thing we're forgetting about the Tyranids is that only a tiny portion of them are actually here yet. The terrifying hordes we've seen are just the advanced guard, the scouting party, a bare fragment of the real Tyranid swarms that are coming. Thing is though, I'm not so sure the Tyranids are united; doesn't each hive fleet have its own hive mind? I don't actually know if I'm right or wrong about this so correct me if I am, I only say this because all hive minded creatures we know of in reality tend to end up competing with other hives for food. If this is so the various fleets will end up fighting with each other over food once the real swarms arrive. Thus their arrival will be both the doom of the first fleets if they can't move fast enough, as well as our own doom, as they begin squabbling over the valuable biomass. The first fleets are most likely the little groups that have managed to break ahead of the big hive fleets to get a good bite out of the new territory. The big ones are yet to come. Thing is the infighting that will consume the Tyranids may be the one thing that allows the other races (or even just the necrons) the time with which to destroy them. That puts the Tyranids both up the list as far as numbers go, and down the list as far as unity goes.
Yes, but the orks and necrons would both be completely out numbered 100:1 by the main Tyranid swarms when they arrive. Of course they will not arrive all at once, most likely in parts with the advanced guard being already here. Most likely what comes next will be a large swarm, then several swarms of that size. These swarms will most likely be ten times the size of what we see now. After that the big ones turn up. After those there most likely won't be much more, just a few stragglers hoping to snap up the left overs. This probably isn't the first galaxy the Tyranids have gone through, they have to have done a number on at least their own galaxy before coming to ours. I guess the comforting thing is that if the Tyranids do manage to eat our galaxy, they most likely won't get past the next one.
ah, yeah, I know. I bet a necron could take out a hundred tyranids, if it was like a fortified position with necron line infantry. like, I get the distinct impression that the weakness of the tyranids is defensive positions... After all, no matter how many soldiers you have you can only attack from so many sides. Once you have them surrounded from the air and all sides, you still cant attack them with all your soldiers at once, which partially prevents them from using their numbers advantage.
there's only one hive-mind. so every single tyranid is united under a single conciousness (so long as there's a synapse bio-form nearby). source - codex: tyranids.
as for a war of attrition the tyranids are the one race that could dominate everyone, even orks. as long as there's bio-mass at hand then tyranids can potentially not lose any war: 'nids attack a heavily fortified position and get trashed, but all the bio-mass from the recently killed swarms is right there and as long as they have access to bio-mass, any bio-mass, then their numbers won't diminish by a single troop/organism (plus any fortified position is limited by the ammunition at hand and tyranids are very capable of making enemies run out of ammo from sheer volume. when it come to utilizing numbers even the ork race doesn't compare). even if it's a straight melee of attrition against orks or imperial guard then every single enemy that dies becomes bio-mass to produce more organisms, and the speed with which tyranids can produce more tyranids is insanely high.
i totally agree that the necrons could, potentially, effectively combat tyranids, but even necrons would lose a war of attrition.
Don't forget the evolutionary power of the Tyranids. They evolve when they get beaten back. New Bio-form weapons are "Engineered" to destroy the exact thing that beat them last time. They constantly change, even when their tactics do not.
I am a huge Space Marine fan, and Chaos is my second favorite. However, the Tyranids kinda take the cake. Tyranids do not suffer from the technological stagnation that affects so many of the races in 40k. As soon as they get beaten, the Hive/Over Mind is devising new ways to kill the enemy. Be it ork, or human, or necron. I bet that if it came to a fight between Necrons and 'Nids, the overmind would lose the first 3 battles, then completely wipe out everything in it's way.
The only reason that there is still life in the Milky Way is because of how many 'powerful' races there are, the Tyranids cannot just evolve to kill one speces, since all of the races have different weaknesses. The Hive/Overmind has to keep switching back and forth.
Tyranids are Number 1. Unless every other race bands together, the Galaxy is eaten.
Dyrcaend wrote: I dont see how necrons would ever, ever, ever lose a war of attrition. They dont need supplies, or ammunition, or really anything...
They need energy. We have no official source or convincing evidence to suggest that the Crons are post-scarcity, so they don't have infinite energy. They may have energy for a long time, but not forever.
plus they need materials for replacing their loses, materials that require processing and manufacturing. as well as needing an energy source to power their military manufacturing, and to power all their technology. tyranids only need a food source, but everything that's organic, and/or mineral (like necrons), is their food source.
against any other opponent necrons would most likely win wars of attrition, but not against tyranids. the plan to end the tyranid threat is easy - destroy any bio-mass source - but implementing that plan pretty much requires that planet after planet is destroyed (actually physically destroyed) because tyranids can, and do, consume almost everything, and that's all they need to keep producing more tyranids - to eat. and though such a plan could, relatively, be easy to do it wont happen because removing a planet from a system can destabalise that system, which in turn can end up destabalising neighbouring systems, which in turn sets up a chain reaction across the galaxy :P
Nothing in 40K that we know of (save maybe Old Ones and War in Heaven Necrons) could take down the Nids. I can see plenty of other sci-fi universes doing it (TA and Strike Legion come to mind) but 40K won't do it in 40 millenia of Sundays.
Yes but they would never do that because it would cause a cosmic imbalance. But in reply to Callum's previous statement, Tyranids cannot use necrodermis to replace biomass. Plus on a fully active tomb world EVERYTHING can be sterilised. Thus if the attacking nids get disintegrated (which is what Necron weapons do) then they have no biomass that they can use. Besides Necron spaceships can just blast the Tyranids apart through overwhelming fire power. And the Necrons will always have a power source. Unless the Tyranids blow up the stars, stop the wind from blowing etc.
The thing necrons have to fear, is the Tyranids eating everything before they are ready to fight back on a major scale. The Silent King is already trying to rally his people to destroy the nids before they become too dangerous. Whichever race is more powerful will only be decided by futures events, and we will never know how those turn out.
in regards to necron power sources i wasn't saying anything about them running out but just pointing out that the accumulation of power requires a lot of work/technology on their behalf, whereas in comparison tyranids only need to consume for all their power needs.
necron weaponry does indeed disintigrate/atomise whatever is being shot at, but it doesn't remove the constituent parts from existance - the organic matter still remains organic matter, it just becomes microscopic organic matter, which can still be consumed (at least i don't think necron weaponry removes the constituent parts from existance, but i could be wrong).
and about tyranids eating necrons, i haven't read/heard anything that states explicitly whether or not tyranids can consume necrodermis, but i believe that necrodermis is eminently consumable - metals are vital for advanced organisms, and since necrodermis is living metal i think tyranids would have no trouble at all in consuming it. but that's just my opinion as i don't know for a fact one way or the other.
Well, although Necrons have Tech advantages, and the Tyranids can devour everything, the Orks can't really ever run out of soldiers so....
Unlike the Tyranids, they just have to not have been kill by fire or a plasma weapon or the like, and boom, in two years you have a bunch of Orks. And although the Necrons are very powerful, they still have a limited amount of soldiers. Orks don't.
Tyranids can go long times without needing sustenance.
This is not said anywhere (in cannon), but, the Narvhal causes the Tyranids to travel slower than Warp-Capable races. In between galaxies is dead space... Thus, they would have to either shut down their metabolism, or find another way to survive in deep space, as there is no bio-mass to devour (via stores of biomass or something). (This could be a completely idiotic thing to say, however, that's my understanding. I'm no astrophysicist but I found this!)
I think the Tyranids are being overestimated here. Don't forget that it has been proven several times that the pinpoint destruction of a Tyranid Norn-Queen or even any synapse creature can leave the Tyranid horde in shambles, attacking eachother and perhaps even ignoring their enemies altogether, all other races (except for Orks, and on occasion the Tau) can do without leaders, but the Tyranids are vunerable once synapse creatures die. Necron starship weaponry is likely powerful enough to blast apart a hiveship and killing the Norn-Queen on it, which will devistate the hive fleet.
Tyranids can also be easily lured and tricked it seems. The grand trickery was their alurement to the Astronomicon and not Necron tomb worlds "as originally planned".
they definitely have weaknesses it's just that overall their stengths vs weaknesses seems (to me at least) to leave everyone else in the dust.
taking out synapse creatures does indeed break the connection to the hive-mind resulting in the 'lower classes' of tyranids reverting to essentially wild animals. the problem with this is that more synapse bio-forms are churned out very quickly, meaning that a warzone may be won by killing synapse organisms but it doesn't help in the long run as they are replaced so quickly, and any 'wild' tyranids that come under the influence of a synapse organism are straight back into the fight under the hive-mind.
norn-queens are definitely the most important target for anyone fighting tyranids - killing norn-queens can completely hamstring a hive-fleet. again the problem is the speed of tyranid procreation meaning that even norn-queens can be quickly (relatively) replaced, as well as the sheer scale of the tyranid race: hamstringing a hive fleet or 2 (or a dozen) doesn't even dent tyranid numbers, plus all those dead tyranids can still be consumed to replace their losses.
in regards to necrons 'popping' stars to destroy bio-mass sources, this wont happen. necrons have on occasion used their celestial orrery to destroy a star (and subsequently its system), but destroying a single star requires millenia of exceptionally intense management to prevent a galactic cascade of destabilisation. because of this necrons (most of them at least) try not to use the celestial orrery, and while such a method would prevent tyranids from eating everything it would also result in the eventual physical destruction of the galaxy.
and trying to starve them out also wont work - they enter a state of frozen hibernation when travelling between galaxies, so if they faced a galaxy that was systematically destroying bio-mass sources they would simply enter hibernation and head to another galaxy. plus if they had zero bio-mass sources then their race itself could sustain their numbers by providing bio-mass in recycling their own organisms. because at the end of the day every tyranid is at the beck-and-call of the hive-mind.
the single biggest problem facing the denizens of the milky way though is that so little is actually known about tyranids - the hive-mind's capabilities and their scale mainly. we know because we're the audience but the natives of the milky way know almost nothing compared to what we all know.
The thing is, to defeat the Nids you need considerably better tech than anyone in 40K has in terms of resource scarcity and construction - you have to be able to set up a sizeable military complex and combat force in hours with only the barest warning, you need to have effectively infinite resources and energy on hand because you have so many Nids coming that you're going to be fighting for a long time, you need to be heavily reliant on automatons for combat, construction and damn near everything so as to have as little biomass as possible in the line of fire from which they can replenish their losses, which in turn means you need something other than tasty biomass to call them to you and fight you on your home ground on all of your terms which is the only way you even have a chance...
The list of very, very demanding required factors goes on and on, but it can be summed up as "Nids are dman hard to defeat and you'd better hope you're an extremely advanced post-scarcity society with extremely impressive combat robotics to make a sizeable dent". Time-manipulation and reality-warping superiority aren't musts but they'd be damn helpful too.
Really, you need to look past 40K to the extreme high ends of sci-fi to find something that can challenge the entire Nid swarm - Total Annihilation, Lensmen, Skylark, the Culture, that sort of level of absurdity. So yeah, Nids are the strongest faction in 40K because nothing actually within 40K can beat them.
But about star destruction... Yes, we get that it 'wont' happen but this is about the most powerful faction. So clearly it has to be necrons, whether or no they actually 'use' their power. But even excluding that, I think that the point of destroying snapse creatures works.
What if the necrons just kill the highest synapses before the tyranids can even land their soldiers? they have the earthquakes as warning of incoming tyranids, so they get their ships ready and destroy whichever one has the norn queen or whatever.
that's actually a good point about the strongest faction, the necrons have the ability to literally destroy the entire galaxy in a matter of minutes (or however long it takes to activate the entire celestial orrery). regardless of whether or not they do it, they have the technology to do so.
however i'll amend the statement - necrons are the strongest faction in the galaxy, because they have the power to destroy it. but even if they did it wouldn't destroy the tyranids because the vast majority of them aren't yet in the galaxy. in terms of numbers there are probably more tyranids in the galaxy right now than there are of every other species combined (in my opinion), and while galactic destruction would kill everything in the galaxy that would still leave the the rest of them (the bulk of their race which is still in inter-galactic space) unmolested. the hive-mind would probably be a little bemused, "what the hell happened to the buffet?!? that was looking really tasty! oh well, guess i'll put my kiddies back to sleep until we reach the next banquet table". :)
so necrons are the strongest faction in the galaxy, but i still think tyranids are the strongest faction in 40k.
I agree that there are probably more tyranids than everything else combined, and I get that it is a heavily debatable issue, but I think that if the necrons really set their mind to it and could work as one (which is a pretty big 'if') then they could take out the tyranids by just assassinating the highest level synapse creatures before fights even began.
granted it would be a colossul showdown, but even if the necrons were to win there's a good (probable) chance that they would be mortally wounded (as a species) afterwards, and a concentrated campaign involving an astartes and eldar alliance could potentially cleanse the galaxy of the remaining necrons. that's if it was only the necrons fighting against the tyranids, but as i see it, it would take an alliance of most of the major races to win against the tyranids.
but as you say it's very debatable, hence why this thread is getting so long :)
I dont think it would take an alliance. I think that the damage done by tyranids would make it possible for astartes alone to take them out.
Buuttttt.... From that perspective....
please consider, Necrons and Astartes have been known to make truces to destroy tyranids. So, regardless of which one is more powerful, I think the necrons would win simply because the other races of hte galaxy would spend alot of time fighting the tyranids. I honestly think that under that much pressure, there might even be like some giant inter-special alliance. I know in general that isnt likely to happen in 40k, but when the entire existance of all life in the galaxy is threatened...
I have another idea besides killing synapse creatures, what if the non-webway and warp races of the galaxy scarred and burned most of their worlds to get rid of biomass and basically hide from the Tyranids (unfortunately this would mean the Imperium would have to shut off the Astronomicon) But doing this has the possibility of forcing the Tyranids to look on to another galaxy and basically think there's nothing in the Milky Way. The forces of Chaos, the Dark Eldar and the Craftworld Eldar could do this easily however I'm not sure if the Imperium could pull it off at all.
In conclusion probably the only way to get the Tyranids to leave the galaxy is for the Imperium to fall and the Astronomicon to be shut off. Which would mean the Emperor must die first.
"So yeah, Nids are the strongest faction in 40K because nothing actually within 40K can beat them." Don't forget about the Old Ones (which are possibly responsible for the Tyranids themsleves) and the War in Heaven Era Necrons could have equally challenged the Tyranids.
220.127.116.11 wrote: ...Don't forget about the Old Ones (which are possibly responsible for the Tyranids themsleves)... the War in Heaven Era Necrons could have equally challenged the Tyranids.
1. That's been discounted. There's no way the Old Ones are old enough for that.
2. Proof that War in Heaven Necrons have anywhere near the numbers and firewpoer to take on the Nids? We know they're bloody tough (almost Culture level if they can challenge the Old Ones) but they'd likely be overwhelmed eventually.
What exactly has discounted it? The Old Ones were responsible for creating the ancient ancestors to the Orks and to the Eldar and as you hopefully know the Old Ones had the abilities to create new races, They also fled to another galaxy. We are also unsure how old the Tyranids are exactly, the only thing known about their past is that they're from another galaxy and literally that's almost all that is known about the Tyranids' background.
Look, we know the Tyranids have to travel between galaxies at sublight speeds. This takes millions of years at the absolute low end estimate. The Old Ones are not old enough to have created the Tyranids because that would require the Nids to have travelled all the way out to at least one other galaxy and back. Again, millions of years (and likely more) will have passed. A lot of millions of years. The Old Ones only seem to have existed a few millions of years before the 41st Millenium according to the very sketchy info we have on them. So unless they have time-dilation technology then the Nids are a lot older than the old ones.
the time frame of tyranids travelling between galaxies means that they pre-date the old ones by a long, long way. in fact it's likely that they are older than all life that developed in the milky-way.
but until/unless there's official lore stating that the old ones did or didn't create the tyranids then it's all just theories, one way or the other. but the likliest scenario is that tyranids evolved on their own many galaxies away and billions (at least) of years ago.
the old ones did indeed have the capability to create new life but i think tyranid bio-technology would have been beyond their capacity to create - look at the races they did create and nowhere is there even the slightest hint of tyranid-esque technology. but the old ones were peace-lovin' supersmart friendly neighbourhood aliens, so why in the name of every 40k god would they create something as inherently hostile, and all consumingly (pun intended) overpowering as tyranids?!? that would make as much sense as space wolves taking up knitting and crossword puzzles, and becoming vegans :P
with the whole taking millions (more likely billions) of years to get to this galaxy, then the necrons would basically have to win. The necrons would just take over most of the galaxy (because they are generally more powerful than anything other than tyranids for almost certain), and although the tyranids might be more powerful than them at first, the necrons wouldnt have to take them all on at once. They could jstu deal with them as they arrived.
Also, I am now imagining a space wolf marine in full armor knitting a shirt while lying on his bed in an amusingly submissive position. Its hillarious.
I can understand that point, but I still think that the Tyranids would win. There's (theroy here) bioforms more terrible and more powerfull than we have ever seen. And, just because the Necrons MAY defeat the Tyranids that are in the galaxy, I garantee the Hive mind/over mind would send everything at them. Untold trillions of tyranids is more than even the Necrons can handle.
ok, untold trillions of tyranids. But the necrons could just produce many, many, many more necrons in the tens of millions of years it would take for them to arrive. Imagine if half the planets in the galaxy were entirely consumed to build new necrons. That would be untold trillions of necrons as well.
their travel time from one galaxy to another is in the millions of years (minimum), but the vanguard is already on the porch, so to speak, and the rest are right behind them on the lawn, and down the street, and around the block etc.
it will take time for them all to get in - i'd say another 10,000 years at the very least - but there are already untold trillions swarming over the front of our house.
theoretically the necrons could build an army of untold trillions if they had the time, which they don't, and if they had the materials, which they don't - they don't have time because the tyranids are here already, and they could have the materials if they had the galaxy to themselves, but every race is in a power struggle to appropriate as much materials/resources as possible, and as such those resources are spread out among the warring factions of 40k...leaving everyone ripe for munching :)
what makes you think that all the tyranids had already left? I was under the impression that they were sending these guys as like a scouting party and only send the rest of them if there is alot of food there.
Oh, and another thing. Why would they send ALL of the tyranids? there is definitely not enough biomass in the galaxy to feed all of them if there are as many as we think there are. I mean, it seems to me like they might send 1/20th at most, then send more if there is an unexpectedly large ammount of biomass available.
Despite the idea that the Tyranids could have been traveling between galaxies for supposed "Millions of years" there's no official proof in the lore, We only think the Tyranids came from another galaxy since they did not emerge from the Milky way. For all we know the Tyranids came from a black hole in between the galaxies, from who knows where.
But in the case that the Tyranids have been traveling galaxies for millions of years to feed their race, it's likely that the amount of Tyranids that there are now are on such a grandeur scale that they are attacking multiple galaxies at once. Similar to what Dyrcaend said, I doubt there will be some massive Tyranid horde numbering in the quadrillions decending upon the Milky Way galaxy. There's probably not many untouched planets ripe and ready with biomass in the Milky Way galaxy after 10,000 or more years of near eternal war. If the Milky Way Galaxy was as it were during the Dark Age of Technology, then there would be many more Tyranids coming for the biomass.
And if the rest of the Tyranids were coming to the Milky Way galaxy, which according to Callum would arrive in M51. By that time I'm sure the wars in the Milky way galaxy and combined the continued rising of the Necrons would have destroyed almost all biomass in the galaxy, the Tyranids would have simply wasted time ;) and of course the hive fleets would begin fighting over the scraps of biomass left in the Milky Way, the Tyranids might be forced to learn how to grave rob.
it's stated in the tyranid codex that they originated in another galaxy, that's official, but it does state clearly that it's unknown if they have consumed many galaxies or if they have only consumed one.
it's also stated that they consume all available bio-mass in a galaxy and then move on. they don't hang around in a foodless galaxy waiting for scouts to report if another galaxy is viable - they immediately move on to the next nearest galaxy, enter hibernation, then if scouts find bio-mass in the next galaxy then that's where they go. if scouts find nothing then the bulk of the race stays in hibernation until the next viable food-source is reached.
i never said that every tyranid is heading here. i'm of the opinion that once a galaxy has been emptied of bio-mass they split up and head to multiple galaxies, because i think they are possibly the oldest lifeform in existence, and as such the hive-mind knows that a single galaxy would be to small to contain the whole race :P
i think there's misunderstanding on what is meant by bio-mass - everything that's organic, as well as god knows how many minerals, is a viable bio-mass source. so every form of life, whether it's alive or dead, is viable (even bacteria, of which the galaxy is teeming with - think blue whales and krill). coal, oil and gas, are all organic in nature and therefore viable sources of bio-mass. plus, because they, like most life, require minerals then even the technology of the milky way's races are at risk of being consumable. the necrons could destroy a lot, but they can't remove such stuff from existance, and even if all bio-mass was reduced to a molecular level it's still viable for consumption. this is what makes them so unmatchable in a war of attrition, the fact that they can consume so much whereas most other life can only consume select stuff and everything else is toxic on some level. plus, as i mentioned, they don't actually need anything to simply sustain their numbers as they can, and do, recycle their own organisms.
some codex quotes: "...a foe so terrible and single-minded that unless every race in the galaxy unites in opposition, it will destroy all life, all civilisation."
"the tyranids' numbers are beyond imagining, a swarm so vast that it blocks out the very stars."
"the tyranids do not communicate with other races, and why should they do so? tyranids are as far above life forms such as mankind as mankind is above the domesticated livestock it consumes."
I think it said somewhere (I don't know where, so I may be wrong) that the tyranids were emerging from a lot of places at once, which may mean they've eaten quite a few galaxies around us.
I don't think necrons and tyranids would fight each other much, as I don't think tomb worlds have as much bio-mass than anywhere else, so the tyranids may simply do for tastier targets. Again I may be wrong.
Necrons don't always deconstruct matter with their weapons. Sometimes their weapons outright obliterate what they come into contact with. Some of their weapons would leave biomass in molecular form but they would then use "Death Rays" or "Heat Rays" instead to just destroy their targets. They also could use weapons like the "Exile Cannon" and remove biomass from this universe making the tyranids just that much more at a loss. I still don't see Tyranids coming out of this fight with any sense of victory.
Yamato Jim wrote: Necrons don't always deconstruct matter with their weapons. Sometimes their weapons outright obliterate what they come into contact with. Some of their weapons would leave biomass in molecular form but they would then use "Death Rays" or "Heat Rays" instead to just destroy their targets. They also could use weapons like the "Exile Cannon" and remove biomass from this universe making the tyranids just that much more at a loss. I still don't see Tyranids coming out of this fight with any sense of victory.
Yeah. but the deconstructing matter weapons (mostly Gauss weaponry) is what they're famous for. Hell, it's what makes their own weapons the only things that are truly effective against them, because Necrodermis can only reform if it's ripped into parts large enough for it to exist in its component nanobots (I think Necrodermis is nanobots anyway, it must be something like that), whereas Gauss Flayers actually rip apart those nanobots and tear a target up into individual atoms IIRC.
yeah well, even if the tyranids have a food source it wont help if alll of their hive ships are destroyed along with the queens. I think the necrons strategy would be to assassinate the queens to prevent the tyranids from reproducing.
Thus I dont think its really relevant if there 'is' biomass. And yes this is a change of opinion.
Ether the Necrons, or the Forces of Chaos if they deemed the Tyranids a threat would do so. I could see Tzeentch tricking the Tyranids and leading them into traps, a Tyranid could not consume a daemon world easily because the ruling daemon prince could transform his world in the blink of an eye. And a more powerful daemon prince could use his world as a weapon against the Tyranids. For example they'll land on what they believe to be a lush jungle planet, then bam. Suddenly it's a hellish volcanic world with almost no biomass. Sure it would pose a threat to the Chaos gods if the Tyranids entered the EoT and then entered the immaterium, but still it would be an effective means of trapping the Tyranids.
I think the Tyranids would have a extremely tough time in the EOT but the power of the Hivemind would protect them in most cases. Tyranids are killable but not corruptable. I am quite sure Tzeetch would be able to pull off some bull shit logic and defeat them but still the Chaos gods would have a lot of killing to do and most likely would need to unite. I also think Slaanesh would have the hardest time dealing with the Tyranids
Yamato Jim wrote: I think the Tyranids would have a extremely tough time in the EOT but the power of the Hivemind would protect them in most cases. Tyranids are killable but not corruptable. I am quite sure Tzeetch would be able to pull off some bull shit logic and defeat them but still the Chaos gods would have a lot of killing to do and most likely would need to unite. I also think Slaanesh would have the hardest time dealing with the Tyranids
so necrons have the best technology to damage the tyranids - namely the celestial orrery. but chaos has the best troops to combat tyranids - daemons - because when they 'die' they leave literally no bio-mass as they are simply tangible energy.
the problem facing chaos though is the 'shadow in the warp': tyranids have no emotional effect on the warp, but the hive-mind does have a presence in the warp - the shadow in the warp - which has a muffling effect on psychic powers. as the tyranid race continues to wake up the power of the hive-mind is also waking up and the 'shadow in the warp' grows in tandem with the waking process. now this is just a theory but i think if the hive-mind reaches a state of fully 'awake' (when the vast majority of tyranids have awakened) then the shadow in the warp will have grown so potent that it could potentially have a suffocating effect on the gods themselves.
even if the necrons managed to wipe out all bio-mass then the tyranids still win, because the galaxy would be effectively destroyed and the tyranids would just move on to the next. and they wouldn't have a sense of victory, but then they don't have a sense of victory even when they chomp through a galaxy - they just have a sense of continuing.
tyranids are entering the galaxy at multiple locations which could indicate that they're coming from multiple galaxies, but it's very unlikely as it would mean that they left a multitude of galaxies, all heading here, and they got here at the same time (relatively speaking). it's more probable that the multiple entries are just the same uber-fleet that are encircling the galaxy (although given that no-one knows the extent of the hive-mind it could very well be that it co-ordinated different galactic branches of tyranids to converge on the milky way. but as no-one knows one way or the other then the denizens of the milky way better hope it's a single fleet!).
the main problem is that while every race has 'this or that' which would be useful against tyranids, no single race can oppose them on their own - they are simply too vast and too adaptable. i refer to the previous codex quote - "...that unless every race unites in opposition, it will destroy all life, all civilisation."
i don't see how we've shifted from most powerful to a giant free-for-all (technically the 40k universe is already a giant free-for-all). what we've been saying - admittedly mostly me :) - is that the only hope of beating the tyranid race requires an unprecedented galactic alliance (personally i think chaos would have to be part of that alliance). such an alliance is about as far as you can get from a giant free-for-all, and makes the tyranid race, unequivocally, the most powerful faction.
Obviously they are the strongest army to ever emerge in the 40k Universe!
I'm going to assume you're either joking or a fanbiy/girl. They may be tough but theyr'e far from the toughest, unless you Cannoness Setheno who can take a Black Dragons Space Marine in a straight fight if that one novel is to be believed.
Besides, since GW hired Matt Ward the only reason the Sisters exist is so they can die horribly as cannon fodder for the Grey Knights. Kind of like how all non-plot-relevant women in Tom Kratman novels die horrible deaths for no given reason except to remind the protagonist why he's so horrible to the villains.
A Warboss of considerable power (maybe a Wierdboy who has grown freakishly huge) launches the largest WAAGH seen in the Galaxy.
The "Juiciest" targets wouod be the Imperium, the Eldaar, the Dark Eldaar, etc.
The Dark Eldaar are forced into the Forces of Chaos and begin to crush the Eldaar.
The Eldaar make an epic last stand with their final fleet of Craftworlds. The Tau arrive and help rescure countless Eldaar.
Eldaar-Tau Alliance, the Tau benefit greatly from the technology.
The Imperium is buckling at the seams. The Galaxy WAAGH has forced the Imperium to lose half of their colonies. The Inquisistion, divides into 3 groups.
The Loyalists- THE GOD EMPEROR PROTECTS
The Sepratists- WE MUST JOIN THE GREATER GOOD
The Chaos Sepratists- SELF EXPLANATORY.
The Sepratists join the Tau-Eldaar Alliance.
The Loyalists make a Last Stand on Terra against the Chaos/Dark Eldaar/Chaos Sepratist groups. Tau arrive, again and save countless billions. The God Emperor dies.
The Dark Eldaar are betrayed by Chaos and have their souls consumed. Chaos now aims towards the Tau Alliances.
The WAAGH falls apart as its too big to maintain proper momentum. Orks now "control" most of the Galaxy. By control, I mean they only fight with themselves. Mostly.
The Necrons have been laying low, reactivating Tombworlds galore. They launch a huge invasion of both Ork and Tau-allied worlds. Orks are rapidly defeated, while the Tau Alliances put up A LOT of resistance. (Eldaar Tech, Human numbers, and Tau leadership).
The Tau-Necron wars drag to a stalemate. Now, for something different.
The Tyranids have proven as only an infeststion at this point. But with tonnes of biomass added to the Galaxy thanks to the Ork WAAGH, and the FULL Tyranid Invasion force finally arriving in the Galaxy, the Tyranids consume entire solar systems.
They interupt the Tau-Necron stalemate and break it int open war. The Tau Alliance shatters. Humans resort to ANOTHER totalitarian dictatorship. The Tau are wiped out, and the Eldaar leave the Galaxy.
Humanity is wiped out with the combined threats of the Necrons and the Tyranids. Tyranids however, have difficulty with the Necrons. Despite the fact that the Necrons have better numbers than ever before, greater technology, and cant be consumed into the Tyranids, the Tyranids just cultivate biomass from the Ork-"controlled" worlds. Using Orks worlds as biomass farms.
Necrons are overthrown.
The Forces of Chaos are still here though. Causing Taint and shit every now and again. But now, "peace" seems to be on the rise. They mobilize and begin fighting the Tyranids and the Orks.
Eventually, the Traitor Marine Legions and Human Followers are all but expended. Chaos daemons are used, but fall to the Tyranids and Orks IMMPOSSIBLY HUGE NUMBERS. The Chaos Gods go into hibernation, thinking that Chaos energy will fade from the Galaxy.
The Ork Biomass Farm Worlds are expended over time, as the Ork genes devolve from being unused.
The Tyranids have consumed the Galaxy and leave. With no more Chaos energy left in the Galaxy, the Chaos Gods reemerge and begin a Chaos War against one another.
Only one Chaos God remains, and eventually dies out.
THE WINNERS: The Tyranids.
Just because they cant consume Necrons, doesnt mean theyll wont net any more biomass. Theyll just use a world tainted by Ork spores.
Or just the necrons goes to sleep again Withe their sterilsised tomb worlds and let the nids eat all the living exept like ont specis of ond cells organisms that they hide and let the nids go to the next galaxy. When the tyranids have gone to the next galaxy the necrons are free to take over the galaxy again
The Imperium is strongest because it is united. None of the other factions can say that except the Tau, who are much, much smaller yet can punch above their weight.
The Eldar unite from time to time but mostly stick to their craftworlds. Chaos isn't close to being united. The Necrons are legion but war among themselves. The Tyranid hive fleets attack each other on contact, well at least in 4th Ed Codex.
IoM united? Sorry if that were true, it would have been able to get shit done, fact is that it is stretched to far too thin and thus cannot meet all demands. case in point: damocles crusade: if it were not for the nids, the tau would have been wiped out. but nay, the IoM needed those relatively few forces elsewhere more urgently.
There is no force that the imperium of man (or humanity) is not able to handle and it's operating really not at best efficiency since the heresy. Yeah it looks like a sinking ship all the time and yeah every human faction codex screams "no hope the end is coming" but let's face it many dangers are rising but they are still at the top and kicking.
Btw i do not see much difference between Chaos and Imperium because they are like two sides of the same coin.
2. Bugs, a lot of them (nids)
At the moment it seems they are the greatest alien danger humanity has to face. In fact they are much like the Orks only more in numbers, way more adaptable and not much is known about them. What is the reason why they are placed above the green menace. To be entirely honest though it's also possible that they are easier to eradicate once the mayor menace of the hive fleets is beaten but for now we have to assume they are worse.
Necrons are without a doubt on the top 3. They possess incredible technology and are almost unstoppable if fully awaken. Their full might is by now not seens in 40k but they may be at full potential on the first place. At the moment though the necron threat does not make it on the top, although every awoken tomb world is even by now so dangerous even the nids avoid it.
Orks are one of the constants in the galaxy since the fall of the old ones. Nobody could really destroy them. Neither Necrons nor Enslavers, Eldar, Humans, Chaos or Nids. And if they got their asses up into a real full time waaaargh they can take on anything. Let's not forget that they were beside Chaos the only faction that took on the entire imperium of man in a single action and the emperor himself claimed them the greatest threat to the imperium. It's even uncertain were the power of the waaargh ends and should they all be united one day under one banner Gork and Mork could outmatch even the Dark Gods.
But although not erasable from the galaxy they are relatively easy to control at most. Thats why i put them under the other three factions.
Lore wise if the Necrons ever fully awaken they would be the strongest hands down. The only reason anyone can stop them is because they are malfunctioning, and are awakening earlier than they are supposed to. The other contender would be the Tyranids. They were designed by the old ones to cleanse that sector of the galaxy and out number literally every other race. If the God-Emperor were still a factor and humanity had secured the web-way they would be the dominant force, but because of the Horus heresy both them and the forces of Chaos are on a slow but inevitable downward spiral unless (insert dues-ex machina/ plot device here.) The Eldar are already doomed, and the Orks while resilient would be overtaken by the sheer numbers of the Tyranids, and the mechanical efficiency of the Necrons.
Of course I am thinking about this more on the lines of who will eventually beat every other force in this sector.
Currently in terms of supremacy the Imperium which is comprised of the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, the Sisters of Battle, the Mechanicum of Mars, etc Dominate the sector with every other force occupying small sections of the galaxy.
Chaos of course exists in the immateriam and are fed by entities which have a presence in the warp I.E. it depends on the Imperium, and things inhabiting material space to actually exist as a threat. So this means that chaos quite literally mirrors the materium in terms of potential.
However in the Long run more than likely the Tyranids will eventually swallow everything up, and the exiled Old Ones will return.
To all those humans who have love for other xenos . They are forgotten that they are humans and in wh40k if u are not supporting humans u are dead bcs necrons are trying to wipe u out , tyranids trying to eat u , chaos corrupts u with their false power so its better to stay with humanity and humans till the end of times
But try to make out with tau they are dumb space communists