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  • Has anyone ever noticed that the roman numberals for the 20th Legion form a double cross?


    XX = 20th Legion = Alpha Legion = Not really Traitors?

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    • It is generally accepted that they are both loyalists and traitors. They do not support the Imperium and fight to bring it down, but only because, according to the Cabal who informed them, when the Imperium falls all else will, and thus Chaos, and the greater evil, will die out from starvation.

      So they are said to be "closet loyalists" by the fandom.

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    • i totally see their point - occasionally to stop a disease (chaos) from spreading you need to destroy the host (sentience).

      what about alpharius and omegon, was one loyal and one "closet loyal"?

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    • No, both were "closet loyal"

      They seem to always agree with each other, possibly because they have a single soul shared in two bodies.

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    • Honestly while they may have started out "closet loyal" I have my doubts that they still are. ten thousand years under the sway of Chaos will change your perspective.

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    • But, Supah, the large majority of the Alpha Legion is not in the warp, but are roaming the galaxy, raiding and pillaging (and infiltrating) Imperial planets and worlds.

      But I agree nontheless, I doubt any cell other than the one which has Omegon (If Omegon is not in the warp) has turned to the warp. Primarchs do seem to have a surprising ability to keep people from Chaos :3

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    • small question is omegon a deamon prince??  most of the primarchs that is alive in 40k is eather a deamon prince sleeping of dead!! or playing hide and seek! :P

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    • We do not know. If he turned to Chaos over time, most certainly, but he is stated to have remained untouched by Chaos.

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    • If he is alive. After all he had a Psychic link with his bro. Could be that one dies, both dies. Mind you that is just bare speculation.

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    • but the twins have 2 bodies one soul thing!!

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    • Yup. If Alpharius died, his part of the soul probably went to Omegon. I'm saying if because you never know with the Alpha Legion. Heck, Omegon managed to fool a cell of the Effrit Stealth Squad that he was with them when it was really just his second in command.

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    • ok ill sound racist here but the alpha legion are all look a like!! before thy join the legion thy change there faces!! to look like there primarch! wierd fetish by the way! :P

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    • you know, if they r traitors why is there battle cry "for the emperor"

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    • Because they originally turned to Chaos in order to destroy it. They believed that they were doing the Emperor's will. However over the years I believe that they have gone fully traitor. One cannot spend so many years in the service of Chaos and not have your agenda twisted. Also it may be that their battlecry is their way of mocking the loyalists.

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    • Infiltration is a byword for the alpha legion. I'm guessing the twins sided with chaos to become embedded and integrate to collect information. Over the of time many will truly turn to chaos but a core portion will remain loyal. Being integrated will allow them to manipulate forces of chaos, and foster animosity between the chaos gods. I'm guessing that the twins foresaw a huge final battle between order and chaos, and knew if they could integrate into the enemy, they could help destroy chaos withing chaos itself, completely by sabotaging them in the final battle. That way they could destroy chaos without sacrificing humanity. Thats why at the end of Deliverance lost the twins breaks with the cabal.

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    • There might be still some Loyalist pieces of the Alpha Legion that fled to the other parts of the galaxy after the Horus Heresy or the Alpha Legion might throw their loyalty with whoever their leader is like Azariya Kyras or the Emperor of Mankind, but we'll have to find the answer to the mystery of the Alpha Legion

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    • Won't ever happen. Anyway like I said. Ten thousand years consorting with the forces of Chaos will change anyone. It is an extremely beguling force.

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    • I say they are still loyal. I also disagree with what the Cabal said about defeating chaos. Chaos can still be defeated without the total destruction of mankind.

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    • All the times we've seen the Alpha Legion post-heresy, they've been supporting Chaos. And in ways that only a traitor would (such as getting gene seed to deliver to Abaddon, or supporting the siege of Vraks only for the Alpha Legion commander to get his sorry butt captured by the Dark Angels).  Hell, other traitor legions backstab and kill chaos followers more often than the Alpha Legion does!  If they're closet loyalists, they're being really stupid about it. The whole "Make Chaos win so that Horus destroys the galaxy and kills Chaos" thing doesn't really work when Horus is deader than dead. That and it assumes the chaos gods (Tzeench,especially, who's whole spiel is that he wants to keep going forever. And Nurgle, who's the embodiment of the will to live) will be stupid enough to let themselves self destruct after taking down the imperium.

      ...though I suppose it's possible that maybe that Alpha Legionaire was lying when he said he was getting that gene seed for Abaddon. And maybe that Alpha Legionaire Arkos the Faithless that got caught by the Dark Angels in Vraks got caught on purpose so he could give them vital information. There's no proof to back any of that up though.

      As an aside, Omegon isn't loyal to Alpharius. IIRC, one of the short stories in "The Primarchs" was Omegon plotting against Alpharius. Then again, with the Alpha Legion, maybe neither of the primarchs in there were Alpharius or Omegon. *shrug*

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    • Er, above post was written by me.

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    • but they shared as soul, so wouldn't they know, intimately, if one was plotting against the other?

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    • I don't believe for a second that the Alpha Legion is still loyal. Maybe in a delusional deranged sort of way where they believe their actions help the Imperium, but actually benefit the Chaos Gods. I can't believe that after associating with Chaos for so long that the Legion has remained pure. Chaos is a force that draws its power from the darkness within the hearts of all mortals, and thus it allows it to tempt and decieve us like no other force. The Chaos Gods understand our most basic, primal desires better than we do. For the alpha Legion to feign service to the Forces of Chaos for 10,000 years and remain untainted is not just unlikely, it's downright impossible.

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    • I agree with Supah here, based almost entirely on the psychological principle of "If you tell yourself something enough times, it becomes real"

      If you are constantly repeating that you are devoted to chaos, you will soon find yourself devoted to chaos. The whole "Chaos Corrupts" is probably pretty much a big deal as well :3

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    • Ehh its hard to say which is which i mean they support chaos but they refuse to go into the warp. Maybe there like the Choas version of the Soul Drinkers? I dont know but its definatly a interesting subject

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    • Read Pariah, the new Dan Abnett book. It (possibly) has something to say obn the subject.

      Personally I'd say they are loyalists, otherwise GW wouldn't have put so much work into creating the confusion on the topic. They used to be a straight up traitor legion, it's only in the last few years that the whole 'closet' loyalist thing came about.

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    • I am still not convinced. I understand where you guys are coming from, but this is Chaos here. You can't follow Chaos in name only. It isn't simply an evil religion. It is practically a spiritual plague. It is a malevolent force with a will of its own, and it desperately hungers for souls. It will do whatever it must to get them. Whether it brutally forces its way into the hearts of mortals or subtley works its way in. Also remember that we are the very source of Chaos, for it is the primal, dark side of our hearts. Chaos already lives in each of us. The Warp allows it to manifest, and it works constantly to consume us. That a group can pay lip service to such a force without being corrupted by it is insane. They may have started out as being double agents, but I think that the Alpha Legion probably bit off more than they can chew.

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    • I personally believe that 90% of Alpha Legion warbands have actually fallen to Chaos. However, whatever happened to the Primarchs themselves is a mystery, so I also like to think they are still loyal but working behind the scenes with their own little warband.

      Btw, in the short story, Omegon wasn't actually plotting something. It sounded more like he was hiding something from Alpharius, but it was really unclear simply because he went to his room privately to look at two suits of Power Armour, one standard and one 'special' in some way.

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    • I believe they are loyal, just barely. They realize that to go back would mean all of them would be exacuted via bolter. Their strategy is to make Imperium stronger through strife. But who knows...

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    • If we are looking for possible traitors I would look towards the Dark Angels. I'm suspicous why Lion didn't rush to the Emperor's aid...

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    • i don't know the whole story (yet) but wasn't he delayed through the machinations of horus?

      and speaking as a dark angels fan - while they can disappear from a battle without warning their allies, and battles have been lost because of their withdrawl, they are following a noble path and a self inflicted penance, but they are not traitors.

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    • Dark Angels were loyal according to the Horus Heresy books. The Lion got delayed because of Night Haunter, who then taunted him that now everyone would forever question the Dark Angels' loyalties. Lion's response was that loyalty was its own reward.


      As another point for the Alpha Legion, even if they were loyal (though again, the whole reason for them siding with Chaos to destroy Chaos kinda flew out the window when Horus lost, anyways), I find it rather doubtful that Tzeentch wouldn't have figured out their plan to destroy Chaos by now (...whatever the hell their plan is now, considering that the original one went out the window when Horus lost, anyways).


      Really, the entire reason they joined Chaos as far as we know was so that Horus would win and then Chaos would eventually be destroyed by Horus after that.  And as we all know, Horus lost. Yet the Alpha Legion is still with Chaos.  So like, the heck?

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    • I doubt that the Legionaires themselves new the "Plan" Likely only Alpharius Omegon and perhaps a few key officers would have known. As a result I figure that the majority of the Alpha Legion likely did legitimately joined Chaos, and those that didn't have likely done so in the interim.

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    • For Chaos!


      I am an Alpha Legion fan, and I think they were on the emperors side for a long time. Then chaos mustv'e taken its toll


      Eh, it doesn't matter, they look good in chaos!

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    • I don't think there were any real differences before as there was afterwards with the Alpha Legion. They still follow the same martial credo & everything, even if their loyalties are somewhat ... ambiguous.

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    • I'd call them traitors to humanity. When did the Chaos gods become OUR fault? WE'RE not the ones who partied ourselves into near extinction and created a brand new Chaos god! On the other hand alien species have very good reasons to want Humanity out of the way.... why do I suspect that ending the Chaos threat isn't the Cabal's sole agenda?

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    • Something to note is that there are (Chaos Undivided?) Daemon Prince Alpha Legion members. I doubt Tzeentch would be stupid enough to promote one to Daemon Prince if either the Alpha Legion were actually loyal (though he might do it anyways if it fits in with his plans, such as say, the Alpha Legion thinking they're loyal but being so warped by the warp that they don't realize they're actually just helping Chaos)

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    • Subterfuge, misdirection, and obfuscation are the trademarks of the Alpha Legion.

      From the very beginning, many of the Alpha Legionnaires went out of their way to mimic the appearance of Alpharius. It could well be that, even if Alpharius Omegon really are two twins, the Primarch(es) used body doubles.

      Whose to say if Alpharius was truly slain by Roboute Guiliman? Since the Alpha Legion relies on multiple contingency plans in any given campaign, it's not unreasonable to think that Alpharius Omegon prepared a contingency plan for if Roboute Guiliman opted to NOT rely on the Codex Astartes battle tactics.

      Ergo, the being that was slain by Roboute Guiliman -- the remains of whom were incinerated before the Ultramarines in a moment of vanity -- might have been a mere body double.

      Ergo, Alpharius Omegon might both be at large.

      Also consider what happens when you hit one twin in a larger-than-life fictional setting...

      The other one feels the blow too.

      So, invoking the absurdity of that logic, if Alpharius was truly killed, then that would have meant the end for Omegon too!

      As for the 'true loyalties' of the Alpha Legion...

      I think they've been relegated to two roles for the Warhammer 40k storylines:

      1) the first being "generic enemies" (think, green-shelled koopa troops in Super Mario Brothers) that could be inserted into most any battle for the good guys to shoot at whenever a storyline needed such a role to be filled. The fact that the Alpha Legionnaires are mostly mobile makes them particularly suited to the role. Moreover, relegating them to "generic enemies" does little to interfere with their other role in the Warhammer 40k storyline.

      2) the second being "the wildcards of Warhammer 40k" storyline. When the time comes that the storyline is actually moved forward (when this happens, you can expect Leman Russ, Lion ElJohnson, Roboute Guiliman, Vulkan and the other Primarches to return for a final super-battle), it is THEN that the true colors of the Alpha Legion will be made known!

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    • Number two is never going to happen, and we all know ti. There is no prfit in it. Secondly what do you mean "generic enemies"? The Alpha legion is anything but generic. That's their very premise to start with.

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    • Hey, could the Alpha Legion be trying to STRENGTHEN the Imperium through strife, like "What doesn't kill you will make you stronger.' type doctorine?

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    • if they are they're not doing a particularly good job. the imperium is weaker than it's ever been, despite its military might (which, granted, is still formidable) the imperium's been steadily declining as a galactic power since emps' fall.

      i think it's more a case of - "what doesn't kill you weakens you and makes it a lot easier for others to kill you."

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    • Supahbadmarine wrote:
      Number two is never going to happen, and we all know ti. There is no prfit in it. Secondly what do you mean "generic enemies"? The Alpha legion is anything but generic. That's their very premise to start with.


      Not generic in the sense, "they lack distinctive characteristics."

      Generic in the sense that they are "readily insertible" as bad guys in most any storyline. But, I think the most accurate way of thinking of it is "they are the koopa troopas of Warhammer 40k."

      As for "number two" never happening...

      There could well come the day that Games Workshop ceases to be profitable. When that happens, they'll want to go out with a BANG!

      And THAT'S when the final fight will take place.

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    • First things first, Alpha Legion were created to be the infiltrators, spies, sabotors, etc. of the Imperium. They were the unseen force of the Imperium. Emphasis on 'were'.

      Alpharius Omegon made their legion look like them in order to ensure that they were completely untraceable by all except their brothers, and even then the only person that can actually know who they are is the Emperor of Mankind. As for their turn to Chaos, it doesn't matter. Chaos is insanity incarnate. Period. Tzeench is the perfect example of this. And as for the Cabals vision: If humanity goes extinct, then the Chaos gods die? Not going to happen. The Chaos gods pre-date the very birth of Terra. They were already plotting and fighting when mankind was a monkey in the trees. There is no way that the extinction of mankind would kill the Chaos gods. However, killing all followers, manifested daemons, and alien species might do the trick...

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    • They DO worship Choas undivided though, maybe they are just spying for the imperium?

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    • LoyalistWolfy wrote: They were already plotting and fighting when mankind was a monkey in the trees. There is no way that the extinction of mankind would kill the Chaos gods.

      Hmmm... I wouldn't be so sure.

      It says in a few different places that Khorne only materialized during the Terran Middle Ages:

      http://my.jetscreenshot.com/2306/20130406-ueft-275kb

      Likewise, Slaanesh materialized only in 30,000 c.e.

      In the absence of human or Eldar psychic-echoes in the warp...

      The Immaterium might very well revert to being the grey but mostly peaceful realm that it was once was.

      At the very least... it COULD spell the end of the four major Chaos gods. There are other Chaos entities, of course. But only the "four" have accrued so much power as to be "gods". 

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    • True

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    • this wiki's page on c'tan state that with the exception of slaanesh the chaos gods were born round about the war in heaven period - 65 million years ago, so we were still quadrapeds at that time.

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    • The reason it says that the Chaos gods have been fighting for enternity is because there is no time in the warp.

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    • If they WERE still with the imperium, I think the imperium would name then excommunicate trators

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    • My personal opinion is that Alpha Legion is so deep in denial and plot within plot within plot that they don't know themselves what side they're on anymore!

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    • I think they are feelance. They would fight any alien or trator or human without pity.

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    • Not really. They fight alongside other Chaotic forces often. They are no more renegade than any other Chaos Warband.

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    • The only thing that really seperates them from other choas is the they havent gone into the warp.(well most havent) and their loyalty is a toss up. You cant really say anymore on the subject. Btw i love the shroud the Alpha Legion has around them and im a loyalist.

      And another thing. Its not fair that Chaos have Abbadon and Demon princes but Imp. doesnt have anything. Also The Lion is confimerd alive and its speculated that Russ lead the Great 13 out of the warp

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    • You call Living Saints, Custodes, the Imperial Guard, the Grey Knights and way too many Space Marine heroes to count nothing? The Imperium has the largest ordered military in the galaxy. For that matter nearly every division of the Adeptus Terra has a military arm, or some kind of fighting force attached to it. Literally every part of the Imperium is bristling with weapons and trained killers.

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    • And the assassins...never forget the assassins...or they'll get you...hehehe

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    • I think most of you are thinking of the Emperors Children legion

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    • Well, another problem with the whole humanity going extinct clause is that the Immaterium has no sense of time. Who is to say that just because humanity dies in one moment doesn't mean that the Chaos Gods simply come from the past to plague the present? In a dimension with no construct of time, there really is no way to say whether or not it will have an effect.

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    • chaos gods can acces any universe if there are others so it could be possible to go through the warp into another galaxy or even universe like the tyrinids

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    • You realise how complicated and important the implications of that are? And IF the Chaos gods were capable of manifesting themselves and consuming the psychic energy despite distance or time, that would make them all powerfull, which is definetly not the case, otherwise Chaos would have won eons ago.

      The Alpha Legion are quadruple agents. They utilise any means at their disposal for achieving their goal, which is to correct the mistake of siding with Horus during the HH. They are still loyal.

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    • The truth is simply that we don't know. Maybe GW will shed some light eventually, but for now, there's just not enough information about them to come up with an proper, evidence filled explanation that will determine once & for all whose side they're on. There's too much ambiguity & theorising at work at the moment.

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    • I wouldn't be surprised if the Legion isn't so twisty and convoluted by now that different members are pursuing completely different agendas in relation to the Imperior and Chaos.

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    • They have their primarch to keep them in line and the pure primarch geene seed sample as to prevent themselves from severe mutation. And considering that the Black Templars were unable to recognize the Fallen Angels , for who they are as they acter `normally` for supposed Chaos Space Marines, therefore that could possibly be aplied to the Alplha Legion. Could there be a possible connection between the Alplha Legion and the Fallen Angels?

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    • The Fallen and the Alpha Legion working together? Nope. The Fallen are too proud, too independant, and far to individualized to be working for the Alpha Legion. Perhaps goaded, rused, and proded, but not working for.

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    • I meant working with, an alliance of sorts because of common goals. And the presence of that possibility cannot be denied.

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    • one of the common tricks of Chaos, is that it convinces you that what you're doing is not working for Chaos. Plenty of Chaos cults that start thinking they are venerating the Emperor or doing something else of the good of mankind.

      personally I always found the "defeating the Imperium will ultimately defeat Chaos" argument specious. Many sentient species fuel the warp with their emotions, while mankind may be numerically greater they are hardly the only species with ties to the Warp. We know the Eldar's psychic imprint was once so great that it gave birth to a new Chaos God. Nothing in the fluff has indicated that the human affect on the warp has done anything so significant. The Alpha legion got suckered pure and simple, and oh hey it was the Eldar(via the Cabal) that did it. Eldrad Uthran practically made it his hobby to screw with the fate of "lesser" races.

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    • I'm with you, Wikia contributor, the Cabal is a fraud. Whatever they are up to it sure isn't destroying Chaos. On the plus side if Chaos is that worried about Humanity maybe our situation isn't quite as hopeless as it seems...

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    • If the psychic backlash of all of humanity dying will kill Chaos, what if all the psykers in the Imperium joined for one brief and bright psykic attack at the Eye of Terror. There are enough psykers to equal at least an Emperor, if not two. Why not direct that flow to destroy all xenos, mutant, and heretic forces in the galaxy? It would make sense right?

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    • One Emp or two against every Chaos psyker and the Chaos Gods? Interesting but it wont be enough

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    • The imperium would never let Alpha legion come back. They killed Ultramarines and imperial guardsmen.

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    • I don't know. Humanity has even allied itself with the Eldar if things got bad enough. And since this will happen at the end when the Primarches return, one of them could find out what the Alpha Legion's primarches really meant to do and vouch for them.

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    • Let's be clear, the Imperium never allies with Chaos for any reason. Also, once more the Alpha Legion is beyond salvation. They have definitely been affected by Chaos, and they have done so much damage to the Ijperium that no amount of vouching will result in forgiveness, not that any of the Primarchs would vouch for them. Their goal in the original Horus heresy was a conclusion in which humanity goes extinct. You can't explain that away.

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    • I forgot the source of this, but I do remember a case where Space marines and Chaos marines allied together to destroy attacking Tyranids. Whilst they had been fighting against each other before the Tyranids arrived, and again after the nids were destroyed, it is a rare example of an Imperium and Chaos alliance.

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    • Chaos and Marines allied in a ultramarine novel. A warband faught alongside two space marines to destroy something in the warp. And all thr Alpha legion needs is a primarchs word and they havent been tainted by the warp they refuse to go in it. Plus if Russ comes back with the energy to heal the Emperor then maybe he will grant the Legion forgivness.

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    • Chadw1ck wrote:
      Chaos and Marines allied in a ultramarine novel. A warband faught alongside two space marines to destroy something in the warp. And all thr Alpha legion needs is a primarchs word and they havent been tainted by the warp they refuse to go in it. Plus if Russ comes back with the energy to heal the Emperor then maybe he will grant the Legion forgivness.

      Heh. Not exactly...

      The novel you're thinking about is "Dead Sky, Black Sun". In it, two heroes of the Ultramarines, Uriel Ventrus and Pasanius Lysane, found themselves on the daemonworld of Medrengard. There, they encountered a warband of RENEGADE Space Marines. But, Renegade Space Marines are NOT the same thing as Traitor Marines or Chaos Space Marines.

      Rather, Renegade Space Marines are those Space Marines that have either left their Space Marine Chapter (due to disillusionment or some other reason), or were exiled from it.

      The two Ultramarines actually had their lives saved by the Renegade Warband, when they first encountered it. It was composed of a variety of Space Marines from different chapters ranging from the Doom Eagles to the Raven Guard.

      They soon learned that the Renegades were on Medrengard fighting a gurella war against the Iron Warriors Warsmith, Honsou, and his terrible army of Chaos marines and daemons.

      It was actually the first Warhammer 40k novel I ever read. And after I read it... I WAS HOOKED!

      I strongly recommend it.

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    • I suspect many renegades eventually sucumb to the temptations of Chaos but that doesn't mean they start out corrupted or that some don't successfully resist. On the other hand when you abruptly sprout spider's legs that's a clear sign you have a serious problem!

      Not only can Chaos not be destroyed it shouldn't be. Chaos is necessary, entropy must win there must be change. The aim should be to depower the Chaos gods who are waaay to strong and energize Order, which seems to be suffering from a bad case of underpowering. What we want here is a balance. The problem is the Imperium tends to think in absolutes.

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    • one of those absolutes would be, "there is absolutely no way we are going to change how we do things!", down that road lies stagnation.

      entropy will win. it is the only true constant of the universe. everything will lose to entropy, even the gods.

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    • Callummacdonald79 wrote:
      entropy will win. it is the only true constant of the universe. everything will lose to entropy, even the gods.

      Real world physicists maintain that the strongest force in the universe is gravity.

      The physicists are wrong. Dead wrong.

      The strongest force in the universe is IRONY.

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    • Haha, I gotta agree with that.

      The Cabal, or the super advanced, super secret club, which has Johs Grammaticus, and invited The Empero to join its core members is simply too powerful to be controlled in any way by Chaos. I am sure on that. They want to destroy Chaos and purify the Immaterium by `undermining` Chaos, and The Emperor refused and declared full on war on it, thus the Imperium, Space Marines and all that.

      Again and again I must turn to the Eldar prophecy, the Rhana Dandra, please read it here.

      http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rhana_Dandra

      Then, we can discuss properly what is going to happen, because I am fairly convinced that prophecy Will take place.

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    • however if the emperor is destroyed the entire universe will collapse into the warp

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    • I think what you mean is that if the Emperor dies (& he will) then the barrier between realspace & the warp will be broken, & every sentient soul (at least for humanity) will act as a gateway to allow the daemons to run rampant in the material universe. If this is going to be the case then get ready for an eternity of torment. For some reason though it never really mentions this anywhere other than the main rulebook, & this could just be to add an extra sense of dread to the 40k universe.

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    • Oh gee, just what we need. More dread! ;-)

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    • Cue the apocalyptic music..

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    • Hey, if there was no dread, there would be no 40k. There would be none of that grim, dark, gothic setting that makes it so great.

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    • Man that book sounds so cool!

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    • Ok. Because of the highly probable scenario that Sindry Myr proposed, i redirected some serious brain power and this is my idea of how incorporating the `death` of The Emperor and the Rhana Dandra taking place might be connected.

      And keep in mind that 40k is above all realistic decisions and outcomes taking place in a fantasy setting, it might not be the most optimistic of stories, but that is because 40k has an abundance of realism, from which the grim darkness originates.

      How can the Warp be purified? There are severalal possible scenarious for that, the one in which The Emperor is a key figure might be as follows. Apart from empowering the Astronomican, its reach also acts as a shield preventing Chaos from going all out on realspace within the boundaries of the Imperium. The power source for the Astronomican, or at the least a key component, is The Emperor Himself, therefore it is viable to assume that if He is disconnected from the Astronomican it would stop to function. There are several threats which could damage the A. and the Imperial palace enougt to destroy it, the Tyranids and the Void Dragon are the most likely ones. When the second attack upon Terra does happen, regardless of who attacks, it would be gruesome and the A. would be badly damaged and stop functioning. At that moment the `shielding` it provides would be removed, giving Chaos unrestricted access to realspace, and the two Armies in the Maelstorm and Eye of Terror will be provided full Chaos support and attack, most likely the Tyranids, or several possible targets. Once the CSM along with demons are within the boundaries of the `Shadow in the Warp`, which negates Chaos, they will be threatened, causing the Chaos gods to use their full power to `override` the Shadow in the Warp, resulting in a massive loss of power. It is possible to literally remove parts of the Chaos gods, by destroying their demons permanently, the GK can do that. That massive destruction of parts of the Chaos gods would leave them weakened for the new Eldar god to be born, and fight Slaneesh. The remainder of the Tyranid fleets, having sensed the danger will then attack the Eye of Terror, further weakening Chaos. That leaves the question of the C`tan gods, and their role in this. It has been said that the C`tan are older than the Chaos gods, and they hate eachother, and have battled numerous times. The C`tan will attack a Chaos god, not sure which one, and defeat them. Meanwhile The Emperors soul will ascend to the Warp, and fight Chaos there.The Eldar will face the Necrons, and will die, resulting in the birth of the Eldar god of the Dead. Everything is going to attack Chaos before starting to attack eachoter, resulting in a massive free for all conflict.

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    • is a c'tan vs chaos god fight possible? i thought the c'tan had no ability to enter warp space or any understanding of it at all.

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    • Either the Chaos Gods (briefly) entered realspace and were thrown back into the warp, or it is refering to the Necron Eye of Terror Doom Device, which could have been attacked by every daemon Chaos could throw at it.

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    • Trying to summon a full Chaos God into real space is like trying to force a bowling ball into a golf hole. Good luck with that.

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    • If you are determined enough, it can be done. With a cannon. Aimed at the hole. And a wormhole opens at the exact second that the bowling ball hit the golf hole.

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    • Marshall Silverman wrote:
      Ok. Because of the highly probable scenario that Sindry Myr proposed, i redirected some serious brain power and this is my idea of how incorporating the `death` of The Emperor and the Rhana Dandra taking place might be connected.

      And keep in mind that 40k is above all realistic decisions and outcomes taking place in a fantasy setting, it might not be the most optimistic of stories, but that is because 40k has an abundance of realism, from which the grim darkness originates.


      If The Emperor were to die -- be it through the Golden Throne failing, assassination, or whatever -- the reprecussions would be BAD.

      Just prior to the Horus Heresy, The Emperor was trying to open a webway-portal for human use at the base of the Imperial Palace.  Doing so, though, created a fissure in real-space that allowed for daemons to emerge. The fissure was not very big, however, and The Emperor and his scientists were able to create psy-wards, that contained the daemons within the breach, as they continued work on the Terran webway portal. This changed during the Horus Heresy. Magnus the Red, the Primarch with the greatest psyker abilities, had visions of the Horus Heresy and was absolutely certain that Horus was about to begin his coup. There wasn't time to warn The Emperor using conventional astropaths because it simply was not a fast enough communications medium. In a fit of panick, he sent The Emperor a psy-message, across a distance of thousands of light-years, from Prospero to Earth. But doing this required him to use sorcery, which was outlawed in the Imperium because of its unpredictable 'side-effects'.

      Magnus's good intentions couldn't have gone worse.

      The psy-message reached The Emperor almost instantly. However, one of its side-effects was to destroy the psy-wards that were repelling daemons from the site of the Terran webway portal. In turn, this allowed a flood of daemons -- that had been 'bottlenecked' in the warp on their side of the psy-wards -- to enter real-space. Not only was the Emperor's work destroyed and his scientists slaughtered, but the fissure became too great to repel with psy-wards. This is when The Emperor began continuously residing within the Golden Throne: only his psyker-might was powerful enough to repel the flood of daemons that would otherwise emerge and destroy the Earth.

      Ergo, if The Emperor to die, there would be a cataclysmic flood of daemons on an unfathomable scale that would emerge.  The flood would be so great and so sudden, that it would cause a massive psy-explosion and result in a massive fissure in real-space; just as happened with the Eldar just prior to the awakening of Slaanesh.

      This begs the question, though... 'If the Eldar's cataclysm resulted in the awakening of Slaanesh, what would a Terran cataclysm result in? Would the Starchild materialize and awaken, or might it lead to something evil and terrible?'

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    • wow

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    • Possibly both. However if the Starchild was to materialize as a consequence of The Emperors `death`, even unleashing a horde of deamons upon Terra and the Imperial Palace would be, for me, an acceptable price to pay for the return of The Emperor.

      What you say is true, consider this. There are ten thousand Adeptus Custodes, protecting the Imperiam Palace. They are the best and most dangerous warriors humanity has to offer, apart from the Primarchs and The Emperor Himself. These 10 000 are the most elite, and there are 300 of them, The best of the best, that act as The Emperor`s personal bodygards, in the chamber where the Golden Throne is located. They are in His presence constantly, and watch over Him at all times. I don`t even want to speculate about how capable a warrior just one of them is.

      When the psychic attack of Magnus destroyed, and that `breach` happened it was the Sisters of Battle along with the Adeptus Custodes that pushed them back. What The Emperor did was to close that breach, and keep it that way until it was repaired.

      What you say is true, if The Emperor dies, then that breach would be opened and all sorts of demons and creatures will come forth. When and if that happenes i am very confident that the Adeptus Custodes will hold them off, atleast for a long while, until some way to close that breach is found, not sure if there even is one, however, make no mistake, when and if The Emperor dies it would be a tremendous event, therefore perhaps the surge of unleashed power might close the breach, or all sorts of things might happen. Perhaps some defence or event might close that breach. And I personally would be more worried about the Void Dragon and the Tyranids, then whatever demons come from the webway.

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    • Correction it was the Sister of "Silence" aand the Custodes that pushed the Daemon horde back. The Sisters of Battle did not exist yet.

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    • Let us keep in mind that the 'Brides of the Emperor' (proto Battle Sisters) kept not just Astartes but Custodes at bay forcing one of the latter to the adopt the desperate expedient of leaving his men hostage and taking the women before Empy himself. These girls are BAD.

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    • What relevance does that have?

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    • Alot of people are pointing out that one of them died. It is still not known if one of them actually died. We are led to believe that Guillaman managed to kill one of them, but due to the very nature of the Alpha legion, they may have made that info up so that it is believed that one died. So they may both still be alive. Although i do agree that they have spent ten thousand years ' pretending' to be traitors which is a long time and therefore they could have gone traitor in the end anyway. Although, primarchs are still primarchs so would have alot of will power. The problem with the Alpha legion is that they are all to do with deception and therefore practically everything about them is just speculation...

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    • Supahbadmarine wrote:
      What relevance does that have?

      Just that Custodes and Astartes aren't unstoppable by unaugmented Humans.

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    • Marshall Silverman wrote:What you say is true, if The Emperor dies, then that breach would be opened and all sorts of demons and creatures will come forth. When and if that happenes i am very confident that the Adeptus Custodes will hold them off, atleast for a long while, until some way to close that breach is found,

      Ahhh... But, remember.

      The daemons behind the breach have been bottlenecked there for 10,000years. The daemons that invaded after Magnus caused the breach to widen significantly had only been gathering since the Emperor had begun the Webway Project (which wasn't very long).

      Ergo, the protectors of the Imperial Palace were able to repel the daemons.

      But now there's 10,000 years of daemons that have gathered at the breach; and because the breach was enlarged, it's likely gathered more powerful daemons as well.

      Thus, were the Emperor to perish, and were the breach to burst open completely...

      it would be an extremely cosmic explosion.

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    • Well, there is a reason why all ten thousand custodes and a full army of sisters are on hand at all times. Also, anybody remember the reaver titans that guard the eternity gate? I think that is enough firepower to deal with the first wave. After the fact, its anybody's guess.

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    • I didn`r consider a acumulation of demons to manifest during that time period. I also did not consider that the headquarters of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights are next door to Terra. If that breach does happen than, apart from all the military forces directed to Terra, the Grey knights will also be present. I am still confident that they will hold the breach for a considerable while.

      Here is a scenario. The Emperor `dies`, and the protection and seal He provides for Terra and the Milky Way dissapears. The portal toward the Webway is no longer sealed and Warp energy spills forth. Realspace and the imperial palace become saturated with Warp energies. Didn`t Kaldor Draigo appear when there was a massive Warp exposure? What would happen if the energy of The Emperors soul is released in the middle of a huge warp storm, and Draigo is present? Would His soul go directly to the Warp?

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    • in the book "The Primarch", Omegon plots to destroy a machine which Alpharius plan to use to create warp storm, and delay the force of White Scar from reaching Terra, and at the end of the story it reveal that Omegon has another set of amour which blank and unadorne. So could it possibly be that Omegon had been contacted by Malcador before?? and what about the third paradox ??

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    • MY MIIIIINNNNDDD!!!! *Head explodes*

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    • My feelings exactly, Chris. Frankly I suspect that the Alphas themselves are so confused by now that they are chasing their own tails.

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    • Hmm... let me think about it...

      • Head explodes*
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    • Let's think about it... Alpharius and Omegon are basically everymen with no true identity. So, the Alpha legion thus becomes ten thousand Alpharius and Omegons, in which purposely decided to turn traitor. No matter the intent, evil cannot be forgiven. They are traitors, monsters, and fools.

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    • With an emphasis on the fools. I mean seriously, buying a bill of goods from a bunch of aliens they never heard of? At least Horus was turned by a brother Primarch and fellow Astartes who he had some reason to trust and believe!

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    • Quoting myself

      `The Alpha Legion are quadruple agents. They utilise any means at their disposal for achieving their goal, which is to correct the mistake of siding with Horus during the HH. They are still loyal.`

      `They have their primarch to keep them in line and the pure primarch geene seed sample as to prevent themselves from severe mutation`

      I still think the Alplha Legion know what they are doing, and what their end goals is. To help the Imperium by undermining it`s enemies.

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    • You are quite possibly right but I still think they are so confused themselves by now about what side they are on that they basically chase their own tail. There is also the awful possibility that Alpharius and Omegon are working against each other.

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    • Alpharius and Omegron are primarch twins, that supposedly share a single presence in the Warp. As to the question of their minds being connected is still debatable and unknown. Roboute Gulliman decapitated one of them, which would leave only one to direct the Alpha legion. And yes Roboute did kill one, because if the fight was too easy he would have noticed, and he does know how the twins look like to confirm it, and bring DNA samples.

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    • But it could have been the case that one of the 'Primarchs' was simply a disguised legionaire. They've done it before, & will do it again. Plus, the Alpha Legion Space Marines are described as being tall & strong even for Space Marines, so they were almost equal to their Primarch in terms of strength, & many of them underwent cosmetic surgery to look like their Primarch. While I have no doubts Guilliman would win over a normal legionaire, they would not go down without a struggle. Plus, he did not know that there were twins at all, & he burned the 'primarch's' body on a pyre, so there was no chance of DNA samples being taken.

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    • Yes, they have used substitutes to fool other Space Marines and the imperium, which have had no previous contact with the primarch twins, fooling Guilliman about his brother is simply not possible.

      The Astartes of the Alpha Legion may be tall and go throught surgery, but that is not nearly enought to decieve a primarch. Also comparing an Astartes to a Primarch is like comparing a chihuahua to a dragon.

      Roboute could have used a needle to take some DNA, then burn the corpse.

      One of those twins is dead, and I would go as far as to say it was also `part of the plan` of the Alpha legion. If those brothers shared a single `soul`, then one on the other side, the Warp, could protect the other half.

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    • Possibly Marshall, but I highly doubt any primarch would fall easily to his brother, and the Legion does specialize in deception, who is to say Guilliman wasn't deceived?

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    • Well yeah but didn't Fulgrim manage to account for two of his brothers? Obviously it is possible for one Primarch to kill another and Guilliman was older and more experienced than either twin.

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    • Alpharius managed to fool Horus that a normal legionarie was him. Don't underestimate the Alpha Legion. Everyone who do have a nasty habit of losing.

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    • Finally, someone who supports my view.

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    • Supahbadmarine wrote:
      I don't believe for a second that the Alpha Legion is still loyal. Maybe in a delusional deranged sort of way where they believe their actions help the Imperium, but actually benefit the Chaos Gods. I can't believe that after associating with Chaos for so long that the Legion has remained pure. Chaos is a force that draws its power from the darkness within the hearts of all mortals, and thus it allows it to tempt and decieve us like no other force. The Chaos Gods understand our most basic, primal desires better than we do. For the alpha Legion to feign service to the Forces of Chaos for 10,000 years and remain untainted is not just unlikely, it's downright impossible.

      maybe, but you all also have to keep in mind the Space Wolves 12th Company, they went in search of Russ just after there Primarch left and they stayed loyal to both the emporer and to there primarch.

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    • I gather the thirteenth has been storming around the Eye of Terror for the last ten thousand years butchering as many Daemons as possible while keeping an eye peeled for Russ. What they have not been doing is concocting cunning plans with Chaos emissaries and killing loyalist Astartes.

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    • Not to mention something I, as a SW fan, know better than anyone

      The reason why so very few Space Wolves fall to chaos is two-fold

      1: The Wulfen. It is clearly stated in the Codex that the Wulfen is, in fact, a response to Chaotic influence, as Chaos has a harder time corrupting non-sentient beings, such as the animal Wulfen

      and 2: The Space Wolves are incredibly self sure. Selfdoubt is almost non-existant in the Space Wolves, something most Chaos Gods turn to when turning Astartes. The usual way of swaying an Astartes is if their squad are killed, but for the Space Wolves, a dead brother is as much something to be happy about as sad, because they have fallen like a warrior. And, since they believe in themselves to such an extent, it forms a shield of emotion to the temptations of the Warp.

      And most of the 13th are Wulfen anyhow so :3

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    • The Wulfen are both loyal and skilled, but also berserk. They are not exactly soldiers who follow direct orders, meaning stuff like combat formations, tactics or even weapons are ignored. Unless the Wulfen had someone to guide them, or enought self control and awarness not to rush off, leave everything and fight chaos they need a leader. The best case scenarion Russ was found, or found the 13th company and they managed to finally escape the Eye...

      As for that, the Alpha legion have been described as favouring intelligence and teamwork above everything else, so they do have some natural resistance to Chaos.

      Unless someone presents a compelling argument as to why the Alpha Legion ARE chaos traitors, my money is on them still being loyal.

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    • After reading Legion. I am convinced that they are loyalists, but I would never feel that my company was safe around them. I just wonder what their agenda is currently. Are they in league with the Cabal in hopes of executing a plan B?

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    • Supahbadmarine wrote:
      Won't ever happen. Anyway like I said. Ten thousand years consorting with the forces of Chaos will change anyone. It is an extremely beguling force.

      And yet you have the Grey Knights who fight deamons. You also have Kaldor, who lurks in the warp brutalizing everything. I agree that some of the Alpha Legion has turned by now, but there will always be a few loyalists within the legion, cheif among them being the double Primarchs.

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    • 95.107.234.20 wrote:
      Supahbadmarine wrote:
      Won't ever happen. Anyway like I said. Ten thousand years consorting with the forces of Chaos will change anyone. It is an extremely beguling force.
      And yet you have the Grey Knights who fight deamons. You also have Kaldor, who lurks in the warp brutalizing everything. I agree that some of the Alpha Legion has turned by now, but there will always be a few loyalists within the legion, cheif among them being the double Primarchs.

      Dude, Kaldor Draigo is Wards special snowflake, therefore speaking anything from Ward is considered A+HERESY! *BLAM*

      [Darth Grunt]

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    • Going back to how Roboute Guilliman supposedly killed Alpharius, I was under the impression that all the information regarding that battle came from Inquisitor Kravin, and is doubted by even the Ultramarines. When you throw in the chance that Kravin is in league with the Alpha Legion, (after being accused of this, didn't he disappear?) I don't know that the battle where Alpharius supposedly died even happened at all.

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    • The Alpha Legion joined Horus to stop Chaos, but seriously underestimated the threat. 10,000 years of corruption has left them utterly twisted and debased.

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    • Thread limit reached. Please continue discussion in a Part 2 thread. Thanks.

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    • I think that maybe it had something to do with the Genitic modifications that they underwent.  Since it seems that no one knows why they weren't mass produced, maybe they were genetically modifed to join the chaos to get information.

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    • The Alpha Legion never went into the Eye or the Maelstrom, and Space Marines without the influence of the Warp rarely live to be a thousand years old or older (Dante is the exception, due in part to the blood of Sanguinius), thus it's very possible the Legion has remained uncorrupted as a whole because the original Legionnaires are all dead, replaced by new recruits over the millenia, psycho indoctrinated with the Legion's history. Now don't get me wrong, have certain cells fallen to corruption? The short answer is yes, the long answer is not actual much more complicated, but each cell acts as an individual, and it's not beyond belief that if succumbing to corruption furthered Legion objectives that the Harrowmasters of that cell would condone it. So in truth, the answer can be both, but the truth remains unknown as to what their post Horus Heresy endgame is.

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    • Seems to me that Alpha Legion was victim of one of the most known countersense logic can produce.

      I'll try to explain in my poor english:

      1) Let's say one person hate all the murderers living in his town. He decided to call a bunch of friends and clean this bad thing.

      2) They killed all the murderers in the Town.

      3) Can he finally say "This town is now murderers-free" ?

      Absolutely not. There are still murderers in town, and it happens that they are the same people that worked so hard to "eliminate murderers from the town". Because they killed people in the process.

      So Ther plan should be simply destroy any human to deny Chaos his "supplies", not recognizing they are supplies too.

      So the super-crazy plan of the Alpha Legion should be like this:

      "Without us noone can totally annihilate humans, so we are the key factor: we are more powerful and decisive than orks, nids, chaos and Necron! (that should be the only reason they did not  mass-suicide till today)

      "Just rememebr tha anyone of us, ANYONE, has to kill himself just a second after the job will be done. Because it's not really done untill we breathe".

      That's weird, at least.

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    • The book "Legion" is out of date in a way. If you continue following the Alpha Legion in the HH series, you'll find that they are backstabbing EVERYONE, INCLUDING the Cabal in Legion.  So whatever their goals are, it's different from the "Kill all of humanity to lead to the end of Chaos" goal in Legion.


      EIther that or Omegon is sabotaging the whole thing. Who the hell knows.


      Again, though, modern day Alpha Legion has daemon princes.  It's highly doubtful those guys are uncorrupted.

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    • i think the Alpha Legion were originaly the Emperors inquisition/ special forces to gather information etc i any way what i wanted to add is every one forgets the Orks, They unite against the strongest race, at the moment its Humanity but moving on towards the Nids due to Mc Thrakas visions. Whatever race is the strongest has the Orks on their hands giving losers time to recover unless they are knocked out of the game. In the future there is only war, no one can win, the war in heaven always goes on since the beginning of 40k history and beyond. The orks are the guardians of the Law, the end boss.

      The Emperor knew he was going to lose. I believe the Alpha Legion was his fail safe, when the time came to retire from the throne his legacy would continue whatever side won as long as humanity survived much like the relationship between the Eldar and Dark kin, if chaos did break out of the warp then suddenly they would find them selves in the same situation as the imperium, maybe they could defeat the Imperium but after they would have Orks, Nids and all the other Zenos to deal with. in the worst case the Alpha Legion are in the best situation to continue the long war if they are still a sizable Legion to serve the Emperor in his death.

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    • Thread limit reached. Please create a new Part 2 thread and continue discussion there; remember to leave a link to the new thread here. Thanks.

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    • yeah lets say they (the alpha legion) are the embodiment of confusion itself :P

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    • Supahbadmarine wrote:
      Honestly while they may have started out "closet loyal" I have my doubts that they still are. ten thousand years under the sway of Chaos will change your perspective.


      but they remain  outside of the eye of terror :L


      perhaps to avoid chaos corruption :P

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    • It's obvious one of the twins is chaos and one is loyalist

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    • Think about it logically as a plot device. Why would they be twins in the first place unless they were going to follow different conflicting paths?

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    • to actually be in several locations at once, reinforcing the idea that alpharius is everywhere and thus further the enigmatic nature of the legion would be my best guess.

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    • Please remember who we are talking about! This prime weapon of Alpha Legion is being 50 steps ahead, planing for every posibility and threat. Yes, Chaos is extremely dangerous, but as with everything there is always a way. And if I should put my money on who can outsmart chaos it would be on Alpharius and Omegon!

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    • one is dead and the other  is what, given the HH series

      and ou got quite the number of alpha legion actions by chaos mutated marines et cetera...

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    • Didn't one get killed by Guilliman and the other by Dorn.

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    • Alpharius at least. But should there be any plan in motion it would most likely not be dependent on them being alive. Just saying that we can never be sure about Alpha Legion.

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    • A bit off-topic, but is there any human faction left that still maintain the original Imperial Truth taught by the Emperor? Bacause I was just thinging if Alpha Legion is actually fighting against the Imperium because it has lost it's way and turned from rationality to the religious fanaticism of Imperial Cult and the reverencing of God-Emperor. Just like Horus saw in his vision. So that Alpha Legion oppose the Imperium but is still loyal to the Emperor himself and his ideology.

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    • you oculd argue for a couple of space marine chapters not being religious

      for the rest: imperial humans, forget it

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    • 67.197.44.118 wrote:
      Has anyone ever noticed that the roman numberals for the 20th Legion form a double cross?


      XX = 20th Legion = Alpha Legion = Not really Traitors?

      Why do I wish that Alpharius and Omegon were extremely short, with Omegon sitting on Alpharius' shoulders?

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    • A FANDOM user
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