New thread due to the Thread Limit being reached on the last one.
Now to business! Where did we leave off?
New thread due to the Thread Limit being reached on the last one.
Now to business! Where did we leave off?
oh and a sidenote to get more into canon
Guilliman himself knew that without sth like the codex astartes ( which was not written until well after isstvaan, or indeed the battle of terra)
you would not put together a force from the different legions...
from "the unremembered empire" chapter 17
"They were a resource of great potential, and their resolve and determination, having been witnesses to
treason and atrocity, was beyond doubt.
A way had not yet been found, however, to resolve them into one force. Guilliman had begun to find
duties for some, as suited their specialisms, and it was, of course, straightforward to place Iron
Hands with Iron Hands and Raven Guard with Raven Guard. But to alloy them more permanently
threw up problems of differences in Legion practices and methods, of motivations and loyalties, of
intentions and desires. Would the flesh-spare leaders of the Iron Hands form a command backbone to
a force of survivors? Would the Raven Guard or the Salamanders be content to follow that? Could
command be shared? Could orthodoxies be matched? Could the survivors be inducted as additional
squads to the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels?
As things stood, the Shattered Legions were hard to wield as one force. In an emergency, such as
the one that presently hung like a shroud across Macragge, they could not be deployed with unified
effect as could the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels
The question of it had vexed Guilliman. Euten had seen him struggling to resolve the issue many
times in the previous few days.
‘The individual character and characteristics of the Legions is what invests them with their
strengths, and makes them wonders,’ he had said to her. ‘The idiosyncrasies of composition and
method are precisely why there are eighteen Legions, rather than one Legion eighteen times the
size. But it is a weakness too, a mortal flaw, when it comes to forging them together as one. It
makes one long for a formal, martial codification that would burnish away the rough edges, clean
out the differences, and provide for a perfect, easy fit.’
"
aka: forget taking in legionaries from other legions and absorb them into the ultramarines
That refers to them been difficult to merge, as opposed to impossible. We are also talking about hardened, experienced troops who are over conditioned in their personal and legion ways.
It is entirely possible that newer marines/new recruits would be, as a product less conditioning, be easier to merge.
The Blood Angles had many of their 2nd et al founding chapters provide them with replacements after Baal (I think was heavily attacked). The various drop site survivors banded together well enough to fight together and cause grief for the traitors all over the place. The loyal members of the traitor legions banded together and developed enough common method of fighting to form the proto-inquisition...so clearly, where there is a will, there is a way.
You also fail to understand emotional states, any group of survivors of a established organisation will fight to retain whatever they can of the old ways, as it gives them comfort in it's traditional, easily understood whilst keeping a memory of the pre-conflict times. We see it all the time in companies who go bust, old employees don't always take change very well, the legions would be no different as it is undeniable that marines suffer all to human emotions too. There is a story of a rebel Raven Guard joining the Konrads legion, or even stories of exiled Ultramarine captains coming across long standing lost marines fighting on the Iron Warriors daemon world, successful, sustained joint working, effectively creating a chapter of dispossessed marines.
You also fail to add that the White scars began to teach their battle cant to fellow survivors, to aid joint working. I forget which book this was in to be honest. So as per many threads ago, the POTENTIAL POSSIBILTY that a merging (in some form) of a lost legion with the Ultramarines is still a POSSIBILITY. No one is claiming it is a definitive, bar you, who side on the negative.
Failure to accept this is bull headed, arrogant, ignorant and demonstrates a lack of real world understanding, whilst trying to hide behind a few ambiguous quotes. Why do you think that even a single page represents the sum of what is going on in an entire galaxy.
You do not get the point that i am trying to make.... if we assume that the two legions were absorbed into the ultramarines, guilliman would not ask those questions because he had already gone through that proces before...however: he does ask these questions.
next: all astartes go through psycho indoctrination while they are in training, so that once they receive their black carapace, they can join the fight with knowledge of their respective legions.every dark angel will f.e. know the combat drill called spiral
the 2nd founding bloodangel chapters keep close ties with their mother chapter, their organisation and gene- seed do not differ aka all have a death company and are of sanguinius stock. and they use the codex astartes. all things that do not apply to our question
You also compare ad hoc formations and individuals like f.e. one raven guard or one engagement on medrengard to individual legions that have not heard of the codex astartes, whose history and primarch has been expunged for whatever reason, whos genetics make them stand out.....
guilliman wrote about the problems of a unified strategy for the different legions. they may have worked ob the same campaign but always in their own command structure and tactics.
i am terribly sorry for entering a discussion witquoted sources so others can check everything themselves... but we all know that credibility and basing an argument on facts is deleted
The drop site survivors are actually butchered and chased. you might talk about lunar wolves and emperors children led by tarvitz, who did not mingle those legions either but only used them next to one another. they were still astartes of their respective legions.
i am negative because the canon offers onpy one source for a rumor of absorbtion while it offers many sources over the course of different novels and codexes that outweigh this rulmor without any problems. I have no problem to stand by my point if view when the opposing one does not have convincing evidence. and the legions being absorbed is simply not convincing because of a lack of proof.
It's one thing to absorb something when they know they are staying, because they have nothing to go back to, any changes are long time. Spaces can be made to accommadate, they marines can be less resistent to change as they know they need to adapt. It is entirely another to try to bolt on a extra unit from elsewhere, when it is likely that eventually they will leave.
If marines can have selective mind wiping, after various event such as assisting fend of chaos assaults etc and marines can use mental re-conditioning to development from recruit to marine...why can't this occur to a dispossed bunch of marines too? It can of course.
As I say, no one ever said that it was the fully trained, experienced marines, it could well be the fresh out the box newbies, less set in their ways (and the legions) or even just the recruits, who are to all intensive purposes, blank slates. This would make merging easier.
I'm talking about the drop site survivors who gave the Emperors Children and Iron Warriors a hard time in Angel Exterminatus etc They died but they achieved goals.
It's been a good few years since i read the book but no where does it refer to the medrengard loyalists fighting just a single incident, it pitches it at long term asymetric warefare.
And of course the Raven Guard compared to the Salamanders would stick out like a sore thumb from each other but a un-armoured, middle of the line legion would cope. Not all legions and not all marines are excessively different.
You just have to look at the large number of instances in the lore you so faithfully cling too, that speak of marines working in tamdem, of small pockets added to larger forces, showing successful joint operations to see that their is enough common ground to allow for merges.
Your use of the available lore is a good thing if used correctly but it is likened to sitting in a dark room with a elephant. You can touch a little at a time and work out bits of it, but you will always have a incomplete understanding of that elephant. If the next novel confirms the Ultramaines took some marines in, are you going to refuse them? No, because put it this way. If characters in the books even believe the rumours or think it possible enough, and they would know alot more than us on the details, then way can you discount the possibilty, whe you are working from seconded hand information. You will always be in a position of knowledge weakness as GWS will keep you there by only writing what they want you to know.
There is a lack of positive evidence, but actually very little negative evidence, it is very much left open to potential. This is especially so as we don't know the conditions of any merge i.e. no one said it merged tens of thousands into the hundred thousands of the ultramarines, it might have only been a few thousand. That many in a large legion would get lost fairly easily, especially if spread around the various companies.
You can not 100% say that genetics would make them stand out and as far as not having the codex, that is a double edged sword really, can help and hinder a merge. But flying a thunderhawk, striping a bolter, maintaining a given mark of armour, clearing a room, setting up a ambush would all be stand stuff really. So most marines probably have 80-90% common traing. The rest is the indivdualisation of the chapter. If this were not true, how would organisation such as the Death Watch, who use codex compliant and not alike, allow high performace, joint operations.
Face it, be mature, it is a possibilty. No one even said it would be easy but it could occur.
primarchs of the missing legions gone, same holds true at that moment for vulkan, ferrus and corax (at least in that novel)
30k marines were not mind wiped, inquisition was not in place at that time... 40k is not 30k
even the newbies spent years training and in psycho indoctrination so that they did not need to learn their craft anew once they joined their more experienced brethren
and with neophytes we already have the implantation of unique gene-seed organs from their primarch, we should not forget that, and all consequences that includes.
they are in thjeir cultuee, the aspects of their primarch and son on. otherwise you would have 1 legion 20 times...
a joint operation under their respective chains of command is sth entirely different from an amalgamation of forces under one banner ;)
if the next book took them, it would actually be the firsdt fact in that regard in opposition to all those that already exist in various sources ;), no writer would be that stupid making such contingency errors.
Show me some definitive sources to show that mind wiping does not occur in the 30K era, to marines or anyone else for that matter. It doesn't have to be the Inquisitors (who weren't around till the beginning of the rebellion, that is true), that was just and example. If new marines can have old lives subdued and new ways inserted into them, servitors are programed and wiped as needed, then it's an option to aid a merge.
I am not and never have said that the legions were or are the same and 100% interchangeable with each other for specialist incidents e.g. A prolonged covert engagement would favour the Raven Guard, though in Angel Ex, we see that the Iron Hand Marine is fully capable of doing a similar job, even using each other equipment. Of course other legions have scout elements or even a more wide spread appreciation of a given tactical discipline. They can all slog it out however and do the core business of war craft so it wouldn't be a matter of totally wiping all old history, culture, experience or the such but more so keeping it in the background and getting on with things by learning new ways.
This occurred in very large numbers when they were reunited with their Primachs joined their legions, a mixture of Terran and Homeworld marines joined without major issues and all with a spread of genetic material, manner of speech, combat, culture and the like.
Also in Angel Ex, we have Warsmith Krouger (Spelling?) refer to the different appearence of different Iron Warrior marines due to them coming from different places. So there is differences and it's sufficient to create a non-standard look.
What is said to be the same, across the marines is the effect of the gene enhancing, which if anything will just soften all the marines into a very vaguely similar look e.g. chiselled muscles, powerful, smooth skin etc
The Deathwatch are joint operations and under one banner (operational aim) the medics harvest genevseed from any fallen brothers they can, so clearly while there are difference, they are not impossible to deal with or are a useless unit... so don't smile at me in a condescending way. And by the way, a joint operation is exactly that, a amalgamation of forces under one banner, by very definition...face palms... ;)
Why will you not have an open mind and just accept that you never know till it is written, till them, all sorts of things from the fairly obvious to nigh on impossible are potentially 'true'.
the inquisition does not cxome into place until after the battle of terra and is only active from the scouring years onwards.
if we go to the rumoured mass mind wipe of thousands of marines ( which would have to predate the heresy by
show me the institutions that wipe the minds of marines in 30k ;)
We, as far as I know Lore, find only one source, where an alha legionary, who already looks a lot like their primarchs, is sent on a suicide mission, knowing that it is a suicide mission and drinking some of omegon's blood to get the memories --> suicide mission succeeds, white scars get news of heresy > rush to terra ( "the serpent beneath" in "the primarchs" anthology)
servitors have half their brains cut out, replaced some of it with mechanics and chem shunts, you want to compare that to a mind wipe? (which, sidenote, will not suppress skills or behavior of the former lifes of people, as mentioned in "imperial glory"
we do have, however: the introducxtion of a lunar wolves neophyte into the white scars legion ("Scars" prologue) though that dude did not go through hypnotherapy or has any implants yet, so he is somewhere between 7 and 12/14 years old when he is reassigned to another legion, not that much time to pick up a ton of the "subtler, legion oriented tactics and behavior, an estimated 10 years (which actually turn out to be 14) before entering a battle company.
( just to give you the difference of this former lunar wolf inductee from terra, to a chogoris based inductee:
"no backward step" from the terran
chogoris inductee: something along the lines of "attack, retreat, attack again" ( words are not the raven guard motto but i am too lazy atm to get the fitting quote, i will if neccessary)
as each legion has a different way of approaching their business, you would have a lot of differences in how the slug it out, actually. or do you wanna compare a world eater charge to the massed advance of a death guard or the slow iron warriors progress of artillery barrage and fortification or the biker formations of the white scars?
if you took a look at how the legions did business previous to joining their primarch, you will them already have their predisposition to what their primarchs does with them.
the war hounds have their reputation for bloodshed, same as f.e. the iron warriorts, the imperial heralds (word bearers) are already zealots who tear down edifices of their opponents, the raven guard are already silent in their approaches before meeting corax. if we, then, take into account the higher induction rates of non terran astartes, and more of the "home culture" of their primarch, we realize a very strong change in how the legions work and how they are inducted. take into account the dying out of terrans and the change of customs ( see f.e. raven guard, who lost their terran terminator elite, which was favoring horuis) or see the death guard and the housecarl tradition.
sidenote 2. the genetic material did not mix, as gene seed is primarch based and does not get altered by the inferior genetics of the human it is implanted into, which is actually a unifying factor, as terran and adopted homeworld marines share the same genetic heritage. and as none of them have any means of reproduction, what is the argument in that?
you know that the legions pretty much get the same gear? you are aware of the stc concept, aka: standardised parts put together so that you do not need that big of a grasp of technology to maintain the standardised suits that you, like the million other marines were given? interchangeability rulez.
what is to be said is, that legions will give specific marks like teeth, irises, skin ton and whatnot to their marines.....
do you, f.e., not find it odd, that 90+% of all space marines are white?
the deathwatch does not implant gene-seed, it does however, collect it and send it back to the parent chapters. and that apothecaries harvest gene-seed is an old hat, that has been going on for forever in w40k, and is one of the few sources of untainted gene-seed for traitor marines.
2nd problem: deathwatch is post codex astartes... just to quote guilliman again from "unremembered empire"
"It makes one long for a formal, martial codification that would burnish away the rough edges, clean
out the differences, and provide for a perfect, easy fit.’"
again i have to say: to not compare w40k to w30k
and again i repeat myself: a discussion is only a good thing if you work one the basis of the same knowledge, which we obviously do not.
i will have to take a look at angel exterminatus, luckily i goit access to the novel, will take some time though ;)
Who does a mind wipe in w40k inquisition and commissariat... both institutions not around. in w30k. heck: fighting chaos is not around ( if they had only listened to the interex)
we also know that the respective primarchs were killed rather long before the monarchia events, and monarchia is before isstvaan. we also know that both primarchs were expunged by the emperor, that all primarchs at one time or another fought in the great crusade. we know that upon finding the lion he still had 19 brothers, whereas upon finding corax, only 17 were left ( and corax knew that he was the 19th, asked empi, and empi said that was a tale for another day)
as for genes: keep in mind that the legions recruited from respective regions on terra and that empi knew the gene seed and applied the corresponding people ( see thosnd sons f.e coming from what we'd now call Iran, the white scars from china/japan and so on, lunar wolves from northern europe)