"‘At the dawn of the great diaspora, the Emperor travelled here [to Molech] in humble guise and found the gateway to a realm of immortal gods. He offered them things only a god-in-waiting could offer, and they trusted Him. They gave Him a measure of their power, and with that power He wrought the science to unlock the mysteries of creation."
That's a direct quote. I have to go with Megarachnid's assessment. It seems to basically be stating that the Emperor was already god-like ("God-in-waiting") before he bargained with the chaos gods, but the gods gave him "the power of creation" (which, in the context of the story, most likely refers to the primarchs).
Of course, that's assuming it isn't a lie, which it very well may be. But without proof, you can't just assume it isn't the truth, either...
Just run a search for "Cemetery World" and you get this.
Gulliman set up the High Lords in the first place. I'm sure he'll figure out a way to make his return seamless. And I doubt he'll want to seize full (or possibly any at all, even) political power either because... well, again, he's the one that set up the High Lords and divided his power in the first place.
The Emperor's original vision was that normal humans would rule the Imperium, not the primarchs, which is why the Emperor set up the mortal council that Guilliman eventually refined into the High Lords. The only truly major deviation the Imperium of today has from the Imperium of Gulliman's final days is the Ecclesiarchy. Of which I doubt Gulliman would challenge because Gulliman actually felt guilty about burning down the Word Bearer's Monarchia holy city and only did it because Emps ordered him to. Without Emps to order him to burn down the Ecclesiarchy, he likely will just let it lie just like he would have done with Monarchia.
Gulliman himself was a High Lord. I'm sure he'll figure out a way to make his transition into a position of political power seamless if that's where he wants to go.
It's more a contradiction/conflict of canonthan a re-write in some ways, because Lorgar and Purterabo in recent fluff are STILL Undivided Princes. So now we have two bits of fluff that are mutually exclusive from each other yet both exist. Sheez.
I'm pointing out that, apparently, fluff-wise, there's no such thing as Chaos Undivided Princes besides Bel'akor. His fluff explicitly states he's the only time the gods banded together to make a daemon prince, and I believe this was not a new thing but in fact simply a continuation of the fluff assumed to be in place from the previously released Chaos Space Marines codex.
In essence, the rule prevent syou from making Undivided princes because there are no undivided princes.
And again, yes, this is NONSENSE, because there ARE undivided princes, always have been, and there still are (Lorgar and Perturabo first and foremost, but there are several other lesser ones). So basically some guys at GW think there aren't and others think there are. And sadly, the writers of the CSM codex are apparently the former. Hooray?
Be'lakor's WH40k fluff states he's the first and only Undivided Prince, if I recall correctly.
This makes no sense when you consider that Lorgar and Perturabo are also undivided princes, have always been undivided princes since they've existed in the fluff, and are still undivided princes today. Clearly someone isn't paying attention in GW's fluff department.
IIRC, a recent short story revealed that Anval Thawn is the last of the perpetuals.
Horus Heresy Book 3 has some Raven Guard get sent out to the galactic fringes, and they have a relic or helmet or something that matches what the Carcharodans have. So the Imperium's suspicions in the present day that they're Raven Guard is probably correct.
I said that Omegon is the LOYALIST one, not the GOOD one. Saying Alpharius, and Chaos by extension in the context, is "bad" doesn't mean the Imperium is good.
Regardless of your views on the Imperium, you're crazy if you think Chaos is good.
Some people think that Omegon is the loyalist one and Alpharius is the bad one. Though considering the two can pose as each other, it might not be worth bother differentiating which is which. One crack theory is that Omegon eventually became the first grand master of the Grey Knights, Janus, who's name means "The beginning and the end " (IE, "Alpha and Omega"). It is notable that one in-universe theory is that Omegon was never separated from the Emperor, which, if true, would make him the one primarch who was never touched by Chaos at all (unlike the others. Even loyalist primarchs were touched by it as infants in a way) and thus would make him the best source of untainted gene seed to make Grey Knights from. it was mostly a joke theory but kinda looking more and more valid as more evidence comes out.
Some things of note: THere have been other books since Legion. So don't use Legion as the final source regarding the Alpha Legion's loyalties. Other books clearly show taht THEY BETRAYED THE CABAL, too.
Hell, they find a way to screw over EVERYONE whenever they appear. The Cabal (Deliverance Lost), Horus (The first battle of Paramour), the loyalists in general (Ishtvaan, which some believe was planned by them, and whatever else), and even Alpharius for crying out loud (Yes. Alpharius. The short story from The Primarchs" anthology)
So don't use Legion as an example of them being loyal. Because Alpharius showed that he's willing to betray the Cabal too for his own ends. Ends which apparently are in conflict with his own twin brother despite how the two supposedly share the same soul.
As an aside, there are several Daemon Princes that come from the Alpha Legion, so I'm sure at least some of them are in Chaos' thrall.
The question of "were they good or were they bad?" isn't asking if they were good or bad on a nonsubjective scale. Whenever someone asks "Is that evil or is that good?", it can pretty much be assumed that the context of the question is actually "Is that evil or is that good by most peoples' subjective standards?", because good and evil is subjective (not including religion/god decrees, which don't apply here if you don't acknowledge the chaos gods as the true masters of mankind). And in regards to that question, "Was Lorgar's actions evil or good by most standards", the vast majority of his actions later on where he goes around sacrificing souls to the gods and genociding innocents (more than usual compared to an Imperium member) fall quite under the "evil" side by most peoples' standards.
Cool Dude 57 wrote: It's true, although there are other 'moral' characters that aren't in any of the forces of order. Most primarchs believed they were doing the right thing, such as lorgar. I believe that it's subjective what side is moral, as most sides can at least try to justify themselves.
Lorgar thinks he's moral. However, by many moral standards of lots and lots and LOTS of other people, he's evil as hell. The things he did post Aurelian in the name of Chaos are actually horrific by most peoples' moral standards.
Again, it's not a question of whether they think they're right. Morality is subjective but some acts are seen as immoral to a greater number of people than others, and Lorgar as well as many many many other disorder individuals generally commit more acts that would be seen as immoral by more people than the individuals on the more order-ish sides on average.
Morality is subjective. Therefore, one might as well discuss it in its context of its own subjectivity or not bother bringing it up at all. Just because people think it's right doesn't make it so, but it makes it right in its own subjective context. And that has to be good enough for discussion, else why bother discussing it?
In this case, the Imperium is a bit more moral than most of the chaotic factions are. They tend to step in when Imperial cults veer past too many peoples' moral standards (such as human sacrifice) and on a whole encourage selflessness a bit more. Although it varies by individual, you will find many more selfish dark elder and chaos followers than you would Imperial members. Even Chaos fluff doesn't deny most of its followers are selfish.
The factions typically associated with evil sometimes might be more morally above peoples' moral standards than the Imperium in some parts, but on a whole and on average, the Imperium tends to be higher up on many peoples' moral standards than most other factions. Every person has their own idea of moral standards but most of the "disorder" factions tend to cross beyond what one considers evil than the Imperium does.
Ah, I guess my memory of those details were wrong, then. Hmm, I wonder if there'll be a chapter that comes or ends up being revealed to come from the loyalist Death Guard with Garro (Sons of Antaeus aren't a 2nd Founding Chapter so it wouldn't be them, obviously)
some far fetched hints are made at other chapters being based on traitor legions ( sons of antaeus f.e. though that hint is small) and even if not saved, IOM had f.e. 70 loyal death guard, a couple of iron warriors and others.
Most people think Warsmith Dantioch (leader of a bunch of loyalist iron warriors that ended up on Maccrage and became beloved by Roboute and the Ultramarines there) became the Silver Skulls. It's explicitly stated that the Skulls only claim to be Ultramarine second founder successors with no proof yet work closely with the Ultramarines, Dantioch wore a mask that looks like a silver skull, and lots of people reading the silver skull novels thought they were Iron Warrior loyalists from their personalities even before Dantioch came out (the Silver Skull's penchant for Prognostication explicitly comes from their home planet, not their gene seed, and thus isn't a factor in what primarch they come from)
But yea, there's also at least 70 loyalist Death Guard too. Though it'd be kinda hard to get a chapter from that small amount I think, unlike Dantioch or Arvidae's groups (which are much bigger).
Above was me. Didn't realize I was logged back out :|
Revuel Arvida. He shows up in a short story and in Scars. Maybe some other places. He was a loyalist thousand son that wears blood red armour with the sigil of a raven. Again, there really isn't any way they could make this more obvious short of explicitly spelling it out directly.
I don't believe the Alpha Legion ever said that. "Knowledge" is in the context of archivists, librarians (that manage libraries), and researchers, which the Alpha Legion are generally not associated with.