Board Thread:Warhammer 40k General Discussion/@comment-202.67.108.41-20140425072251/@comment-26859246-20150902205402

You actually using the same source that i found lol

I was just reading about that earlier

Though Horus and the other traitor primarchs killed the majority of loyalists within their legions they didn't manage to kill them all as the source says. In addition even among the loyalist legions there were those that simply vanished without a trace to fight their own wars. The Iron Hans, Raven Guard and Salamanders that suffered huge losses at the drop site had a lot of these.

The second founding was indeed pretty confusing and records were not kept up to date so many chapters were simply forgotten or know nothing about which legion they descended from.

Algrim Whitefang wrote: I'd like to chime in, if I may...

First of all, many of you should read the "Horus Heresy Book 4 - Conquest." (Specifically, pp. 19, 158 & 216) This great source book specifically makes mention of the "Sundered and the Black." It talks about those who fell at Istvaan V, the few battered survivors, remnants and fleeing fragments, though a bit mad from the betrayal perpetrated against them by their former brothers. Many of these remnants went on to wage their own private, bitter wars against the Traitor Legions.

But more interestingly, there were those (though long refuted, obfuscated and denied by the higher authorities of the Imperium) that some elements within, both Loyalist and Traitor, became turncoats in order to serve another master, and that this happened on both sides of the divide. This source goes on to say that there were stories and evidence long since suppressed of midnight clad warriors in defaced Night Lords heraldry savagely attacking Traitor forces at the liberation of Estaban III, or of recurring reports of multiple Space Marine strike forces seemingly in the resurrected livery of the Dusk Raiders thwarting the Iron Warriors at Kibron and Malinche's Fall.

Despite the scarcity of records, there are accounts of small warbands that were once part of the known Traitor Legions fighting independently which persisted throughout the war. Some outcasts bore their original colours and may have regarded themselves as the true inheritors of their Leigons. For example, the 34th Millennial of the Emperor's Children (the "Death Eagles") bore their original purple and gold of their parent Legion with pride, refusing to abandon their heraldry. It is thought that the Death Eagles Millennial clashed with their Traitor kin at Lethe and at Revorthe Keep in the Coronid Deeps, but their ultimate fate, like that of so many others, remains unknown.

As to the long term viability of these lost Legiones Astartes detachments, it is difficult to say. Given sufficient gene-seed and technical competence it is entirely possible for such a formation to maintain its strength over a protracted period, inducting and training new recruits in the same way as a normal modern-era Space Marine Chapter. There is certainly numerous cases cited throughout Imperial history where this has occurred, such as the Space Wolves 13th Company. This might explain how such Chapters were able to survive the Age of Darkness as well as the subsequent era of the Great Scouring. If some of these modern era Chapters are indeed descended from one of the Traitor Legions, it would explain why their true origins have been purposely obfuscated. (Blood Ravens anyone?) Such a connection to a reviled Traitor Legion would also be a terrible dishonour and would explain why many Chapters' heritage and original Legion colours may have been deliberately obscured from the Imperial record.

Keep in mind, the Second Founding, which occurred in 021.M31, occurred so long ago in the Imperium’s troubled history that no reliable accounts of its details exist. Exactly how many Chapters were founded and from which Legions is unclear. One of the earliest known accounts is to be found within a version of the Codex Astartes known as the Apocrypha of Skaros, and this crumbling tome claims that the Ultramarines Legion sired twenty-three Primogenitor Chapters, but famously omitted to list them all. Furthermore, no version of the codex lists a Second Founding as having been raised from the Salamanders Legion, though this does not mean that none ever were. It is also possible that such Chapters as the Raptors, the Silver Skulls and other Chapters were also established during the Second Founding.

Due to the scarcity of information regarding the identity and status of the Second Founding Chapters, a huge amount of mystery and legend surrounds many of them. Some Chapters that believe themselves Second Founding may not be at all, while others may be Second Founding but be ignorant of the fact. The ten thousand year history of the Imperium is so fractured, its annals so scattered and incomplete, that it is likely that the truth of the matter may never be known.

Hope this clears some things up for all of you!

Algrim Whitefang, WH40K Wiki Associate Administrator http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/SGM-Daly91/Warhammer%2040K/SWBadgesmall_zpsa703bc79.png (talk)