Board Thread:Warhammer 40k General Discussion/@comment-24405075-20150318130307/@comment-8881468-20150327204544

You really want me to show how little you can read.... As I have already pointed out, with quotes, you are jumbling persons and you are getting facts mixed up.

I was already quoting Scars ( you might wanna sc roll up, I have specificcally addressed your remark and replied with the source material, correcting your mistake/showing you the mistake you made.

Haren did not receive any Implants prior to his reassignment to the fifth Legion.

But meh, let me make it bold for you, this is from ebook reader calibre pg 26-28 of scars episode 1

So that you may get it when I repeat this.

‘Haren Svensellen?’ he asked. Haren clicked his heels together and stood rigidly. ‘Sir.’ The man looked Haren up and down. His flesh was grey and he looked tired. A glitter of augmetics ran down his right cheek, breaking the skin and pinning tight under his jaw. One eye glowed a soft red, the other was natural.

"‘Your time here is complete,’ he said. ‘Are you prepared to serve?’ ‘I am.’ The words made Haren swell with pride. The first stage – the selection, the physical conditioning – was over. He felt strong. His lean, immature limbs had hardened, his chest had broadened'''. More would come – the gene-therapy, the psycho-conditioning, and then, finally, the implants that would make him one with the Legion." '''

Okay, let us move on to the page here on the wiki for gene-seed, we get http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/8/8b/Space_Marine_Stages_Initiation.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140310031226

you might wanna take a look at it, implantation at 9 is very very unlikely, if not, looking at the source: utter rubbish.

As for your interjection: you are, again, completely false, as the quote you may allude to, deals not with the Terran initiate but with a Chogorian one,m named Tamu, but please, let me quote it and make it bold, again, so that you may get your mistake.

Thjis is from Ebook reader Calibre, Scars Episode one pg 19-21

'As for now, I am half-finished, he thought. Half-boy, half-man. Half-man, half-god. Everything is incomplete.' He smiled. He liked those contrasting pairs. He would find a use for them in a poem, and that would please the training masters, who liked to encourage the aspirants to adopt one of the Noble Pursuits. Most chose hunting, some Khorchin calligraphy. Only a few had the patience for the spare, hard, compact forms of ci verse, and so they had encouraged Tamu particularly strongly. Half-boy. Half-man. Half-god. He heard footsteps, and listened for the tread signature. Targutai Yesugei was coming down the citadel steps to join him. Tamu turned his head, watching the worn-earth edges of the monastery’s foundations soar away above him. Flags rustled at its summit – the red and gold of the khans, the black and silver of the Imperium. Yesugei made his way slowly down the wide stairway. Clear sunlight glinted from his armour. Tamu waited patiently, bowing respectfully as the zadyin arga approached. '''‘Feeling better?’ asked Yesugei, looking at him intently. ‘The implant took,’ Tamu replied. ‘I was told you were near death.’ Tamu grinned. ‘I eluded it.’'''

but meh, I am cocksure because I can get this argument easily out in length:

Argument for the Ultramarines swelling in size: the ONLy Canon source: "First Heretic"

"Argel Tal still hadn’t left Guilliman’s pod. ‘We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.’ ‘Are some chances not worth taking?’ asked the Chaplain. ‘Some are. This one is not.’ ‘But the Eleventh Legion—’ ‘Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the Second. I’m not saying I don’t feel temptation creeping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we’d unwrite a shameful future.’ Dagotal cleared his throat. ‘And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers.’ Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weigh the merit of such a thing. ‘What?’ Dagotal asked the others. ‘You were thinking it, too. It’s no secret.’ ‘Those are just rumours,’ Torgal grunted. The assault sergeant didn’t sound particularly certain. ‘Perhaps, perhaps not. The Thirteenth definitely swelled to eclipse all the other Legions around the time the Second and Eleventh were “forgotten” by Imperial archives.’ Enough of this insipid conjecture, came the disembodied voice again.

They swelled to eclipse all others around the time the other legions were forgotten, however:

1. they have the largest recruitment pool

2. they have the administrator in Guilliman and generally leave in place structures that are geared towards the output for candidates for Astartes, Army and Navy.

3. They do not go in for the attrition Warfare of Death Guard or World Eaters, they outnumber the small Legions like Space Wolves, Empi Children (tragedy with their gene-seed) and Thousand sons.

4. By the time Guilliman was found, he, unlike all others, he had access to several recruiting planets and had a steady suply that he continually expanded, ( Codex Space Marines 5th edition pp. 12-15, Codex Tyranids 5th Edition pg. 13)

--> aka: Guilliman was loosing so few men (Space Marines Codex 5th edition pg. 12-15), had the full Ultramar (and was actually winning so many worlds in such short time) he had to even get a new organisation tier above the regiment (1000 Marines) so he could handle his big Army, the Chapoter with 10000 Astartes and sorry, he got the chapter.

the 13th swelled to eclipse the other legions at the time the 2 other legions went out (which accroding to http://battlebunnies.blogspot.de/2015/02/great-crusade-primarch-discovery-and.html is around 96x m 30), over 100 years after guilliman has been united with his legion) Canon Source is Horus Heresy Book Two - Massacre pg. 19

aka: they havce constantly gotten stronger recruitment, incurred fewer losses, sooner or later you get to the eclpise, as codex sources and canon sources will point out.

Counter Arguments:

1. Empi met all 20 Primarchs --> Index Astartes 1: Rites of initiation

2. Alll 20 primarchs fought at the head of their Legions in the Great Crusade (Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition pg.7)

3. 20 statues of the Primarchs were erected in the Imperial Palace on Terra. By the time of the Horus Heresy, plinths II and XI "...had been vacant for a long time. No-one ever spoke of those two absent brothers [and] their separate tragedies." Short Story "The Lightning Tower"

4. 43 years prior to the Heresy at Monarchia, only 18 Legions still exist  --> "The First Heretic"

5. "I fear the Emperor will break the Word Bearers - and break me. We would be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of. --> Chapter 10 "First Heretic"

6. Gene Seed: We only have one source for mixed Gene-Seed that is Honsou of the Iron Warriors, who is a product of the work of Fabius Bile, who in turn only started "perfecting" gene-seed after the Laer Campaign (Sources: "Fulgrim" "Angel Exterminatus Epilogue") which happens very shortly before the Isstvaan campaigns.

--> we have no source for prior mixing of gene-seed or the possibility of it ( as we have to consider all primarchs to be of equal quality, you would trigger autoimmune reactions and organs fighting each other if you gave every astartes gene-seed from different sources aka: no mixing the DNA, otherwise also Chapters would not be so keen to collect on their gene-seed from battlefields of Deathwatch and the likes, if they could simply use random other gene-seed.)

7. Space Wolves destroyed Space Marines before, the Executioner Leman Russ fought Marines before. Same book: Chapter 13: "The fortress homes of the All-father's eighteen Legions Astartes are the most formidable and impregnable sites in the new Imperium." --> "Prospero Burns"

8. Both Primarchs are dead before Corax is found. When Corax is found, he knows he is Primarch number 19 but is told by Emps that he only has 17 brothers. Empi avoids further questions by postponing the account of it "Deliverance Lost pp. 247-248

9. Guilliman himself in "The Unremembered Empire" brings in the problems of making up a force out of different Legions. see chapter 17 of that book or my post 2-3 up, with that quote)

10 Prologue to "Fear to Tread" when Horus asks Sanguinis why the latter keeps the Red Thirst a secret from everybody else: "You know the reason! [...] I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history. I will not have a third empty plinth beneath the roof of the Hegemon as my Legion’s only memorial!"

11: "Of these twenty Legions, steadily expanding in numbers over time, eighteen would survive to grow into vast forces by the end of the Great Crusade - as to those that did not, nothing can be said in this record." Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal pg. 29

12. Scars: the loyalties thanks to indoctrination of the reassigned candidate Harren speak of a standing out of marines not in "their legion"

13. "All my true sons will bear my mark" Corax in Deliverance Lost, many Marines are recognisable to one another thanks to their likeness to their primarchsa, their functioning organs and complexion and so on. Since there are only 20 different sets to begin with and you only need to find one or 2 different ones to your parent legion, guess what, that c an be found out.

14. Deliverance Lost: the lengths that the Alpha Legion goes through to infiltrate the Raven Guard to actually blend in and be one of them, surgeries, taking in of flesh, use of psykers to change memory and so on. to hide all the differences to outsiders in the Legion. you will not take in hundreds if not thousands of marines with different modus operandi, tactics and so on and not recognize that something is missing/different/amiss.

15. No Codex Astartes to combine different Legion cultures.

I do not wanna go into more details ;)